IST, too much of one thing?

[Element]

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Commissar Vocaloid wrote:I don't think the SS are all that bad at ranged.

Also, and I think I've seen Radio do this before, but I do find the overcharge ability for the IST plasmaguns to be a little silly against mobs or high model count/low hp models. I've seen triple ISTs with plasma guns overcharge and completely wipe out heretics on a few occasions in one blast - that's not to say it's a worthwhile investment for heretic killing, but it's an interesting if not funny note nonetheless.

if cost is no issue , then SS can be considered a competent ranged unit. Then again if cost was no issue any unit can be considered competent at anything.
Taking into account the resources needed, no they are awful. Its a cost issue more than anything else. for the amount of money you need to pump into them , the returns are dismal in regards to just being a ranged unit.

keep in mind when i say a ranged unit , I dont mean a unit that just happens to shoot projectiles . no I mean specifically a unit that is good against other infantry. Not a unit that can do some damage to vehicles , not a unit that can debuff or buff things , and not a unit that can melee. No because none of things matter in the role of just a ranged infantry unit. Those things are not part of that role.

can strikes be a mediocre av unit? yes they can be
can strikes be a decent support unit ? yes they can be
can the strikes be a decent melee unit ? yes they can be
can strikes be an average ranged unit? yes they can be
can strikes ever be a good or even GREAT ranged unit . no and people need to stop pretending that they are. and perhaps even that they should be,

the very reason why i tried to not make SS the topic of this thread was specifically because i stopped viewing SS as a direct damage infantry unit.

That is why i am viewing ist as that unit instead, and why I am questioning their current upgrades.

the over charge ability is hit or miss, needing 3 ist and 60 power 240 req to gibb a tightly bunched heretic squad is not money well spent. and individually the plasma shots do very little damage in a very very small area of effect. for any squad that has more than 100 model hp an individual plasma over charge shot will do almost no appreciable damage.

It is there for the suppression more than anything else , just like the grenades are for the knock back more than anything else. hence the redundancy.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. PREACH!

[Cheah18]

tbh I've been playing a lot of gk recently and have been having a good deal of success (vs players of my own standard and slightly better)

I DO agree SS are a bit too weak ranged, especially for the price. CSM are only 400 req but CAN upgrade into eternal war, and TCSM are just ******* crazy. So the comparison is a little invalid.

That said, and this may be just my chaos hate here, but how can TCSM be soooo blooming shooty when ss can only get a measly upgrade for range? I know theyre good in melee but meh in tier 2 their melee counts for little.

[Dalakh]

To be fair TCSM make any upgradedT1/T2 ranged squad look pathetic in comparison, they are more the exception than the rule as far as power armor units go.

[Cheah18]

I actually think chaos is so OP myself. What does Caeltos know that I don't? It keeps me up at night.

[Caeltos]

I withold the possession of future changelogs. That's one of them.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I wont because they don't.

in t1 their dps may be slightly better than ist , on paper . but the way they do that damage is by far the worst. This is a game about kiting and maximizing damage potential. there is no damage potential to maximize if your damage is always the same.

32 ranged dps on ist is true only over a period of time and assumes the units dont run away or move around. that very unlikely situation is the ONLY situation in which the strikes do their full dps.

but in a fire and kite scenario , that initial burst of damage is far more than just 32 dps, for just that one second that dps can be in the 90s. that is the power of burst dps. that is why 13.5 sniper dps on scouts is considered a balance issue, its just 13.5 dps yet holy shit snipers are the talk of the town. How units deal their damage is just as important as how much damage they do if not more important.

and to be perfectly blunt strikes do their damage in the weakest possible way.

So no i will not take back my assertion that their ranged dps is ass , because they way it is dealt is ASS, nothing , no matter how much power you sink into their over priced upgrades will change the fact that the way they deal their damage is complete and total ASS!!!!!!!!!

psy cannons cant fire on the move , they have long firing cycles , suck at kiting , suck at chasing , they SUCK.
Storm bolters dont do burst damage and are terrible at getting model kills , they are ASS!



Well Tacs fire in Salvos same as ST,SS has a constant-firing rate and medicore pincer AV everything in t2,that deliberately explains it clearly. SS nvr doesn't have a gud retreat kills with their Storm bolters. Nthg done to change their performance,their Energy sappers/damage deterrent in t2 & beyond . Tha'ts all,Purifiers soak damage efficiently then SS to me. Its that SS firing pattern is how they function on the field,nthg alike to Tacs/CSM . Sure,their better then em in T1,nvr T2-T3

[/quote]

[HandSome SoddiNg]

tbh I've been playing a lot of gk recently and have been having a good deal of success (vs players of my own standard and slightly better)

I DO agree SS are a bit too weak ranged, especially for the price. CSM are only 400 req but CAN upgrade into eternal war, and TCSM are just ******* crazy. So the comparison is a little invalid.

That said, and this may be just my chaos hate here, but how can TCSM be soooo blooming shooty when ss can only get a measly upgrade for range? I know theyre good in melee but meh in tier 2 their melee counts for little.

That is why WATH is cruical vs Chaos ,Purifiers can be viable choice if u have NWS/MB to support em. VA can peel models off TCSM exceptionally well . Don't forget u have Dark-exo/COA to utilize against Chaos heroes

[sk4zi]

after reading about the half thread, i would suggest to reduce the dps of vanilla IST drasticly, and put the actual strength in the sergant upgrade

to balance that out IST can get infil out of the gate.

that sould even seperate them from the other "lowest" squads

[Torpid]

And that really would make GK utterly useful vs tanky melee heroes, the mekboy and the warp spider as well as chaos with more than 1 tic.

[Element]

after reading about the half thread, i would suggest to reduce the dps of vanilla IST drasticly, and put the actual strength in the sergant upgrade

to balance that out IST can get infil out of the gate.

that sould even seperate them from the other "lowest" squads

The thing is, that is what this patch was trying to get away from. The point was to make it so that IQST were not to be the MAIN support unit like strikes by just buying sergeants on all of them and truly seperate them as a detector/back cap/repair/ back-up support unit much like scouts or heretics are back- up support units (though I understand these units can very much so lead the lines sometimes). I'ts because we didnt want to see 3x stormtroopers all the time as the main gk build in t1 but truly actually a diverse T1, utilizing well... all the squads in T1 rather than having the ability to make up and be of better choice option than getting out multiple different units. Making the sergeants to the bulk of the damage is not ideal, because when you get a sergeant it should be for the purpose of detecting units only and adding a small amount extra unit survivability, not a huge increase in DPS. (at least not with this type of a squad for its role)

The only thing about giving IQST infiltration is....that would even more sollidify this unit to be the more dominant choice option over strikes bcause that would make them able to get into positions that are much more worthwhile than strikes, it would allow them to break away and set-up engagements easier as well. Im not saying infiltration on IQST is a bad idea(though I would not make it so they can infiltrate out of the gat but with sergeant upgrades)

However, that is beyond the point. The point is that the other units of this tier need to be made to be more worth taking than what they are now by simply making them to be playable units in T1 or more rather sufficient at what it is they need to be doing as opposed to trying to find ways to buff IQST performance. IQST to me except for in T3 are pretty damn good (though plasma guns upgrades are just not appeasing to me personally atm, because holding off nade launchers for plasma guns when I feel I get a lot more field presence and usage because of the range on the nade launchers in T1 and even in T2 and scale decently well in T3 with that knockback while they cant necessarily threaten by wipe; is just much better)

IQST are trying to make up for the loss of purgation and interceptors as viable unit options in T1 and even as options to be taken in T2 because of the units they struggle to challenge being purchased over the V.A./LAS Rhino and purifiers to gain back field presence, in addition to the mediocre.. ranged damage dealing nature of SS by being the complete main force in T1 and even leading much through T2 because of their economic cost that know where close justify the amount of ranged damage they do now. That is a problem, and a huge one. I wouldn't even necessarily say that it is the fault of anyone other than people adapting and moreover, knowing how to counter them and its for these reasons that I say IQST are quite solid, it's really all the other stuff that isn't. Whenever I think of getting out interceptors I think (Uhhh.... too heavily costed and they are going to get out too late to make a difference+ too easily controlled and have no disruption, When I think of getting out purgation I think, Uhhh.... to
easily kitable in T1 and a incinerator upgrade on strikes will make do rather than buying a whole unit that probably will be shot up from ranged, when I think strikes I think Uhhh.... too overcosted in terms of economy/ damage and pop/ relevancy and importance. At least tzeentch marines and sternguard are well... very efficient at ranged after all the economical investment, and tacs can do almost everything (other than de-energize and energize units) that this squad can but IMHO better because they have 1.5x cap rate, tankin through ranged damage and melee with ATSKKF, deal out rather close to the same amount of ranged damage( despite a less power/ damage investment) as stikes because they are truly a dedicated ranged support unit (which strikes should be because they don't get in melee often or make much a difference in T2 and T3 so why would I care for extra melee damage when they will mostly be shooting anyways) and at least I don't feel like when I get out termi varients that termis are quote on quote replacing the unit because of how they aren't necessarily as completely blatantly better than tacs, where as termi varients for GK are without question better than pretty much most infantry units below them (purgation- because their psycannon can fire on the move, strikes- because strikes ranged damage wasn't all that great anyways , purifiers- because their melee is better and they can get in and out of the fray without bleeding the models) almost as if all the other units were redundant. Which is when Forestradio in my thread suggested removing the incinerators on termis/palis because of how strongly well rounded and efficient it made them as chasing units only adding on to the list of reasons why they are better than those lower infantry units. That is where I went even a step further and suggested pretty much copy/paste from the thread

Id honestly be inclined to agree with Forest here, this because as of now this is the only race with both terminator varients being capable of both ranged and melee. This gives them a bit too much chasing power and makes them to well rounded. However if that is done huge changes would need to be made. Lightning claw terminators still shred both of these terminator varients to pieces so inorder to compensate for that I'd only imagine

1. GK Terminators would lose their halberds and become a ranged unit primarily using their bolters in similiar fashion as the ranged varient terminators, and they could then be given the ability to take up the psycannon or incinerator upgrades

and

2. GK paladins would be given the option of taking halberds but the damage on those halberds would need to be increased to that of lightning claw levels in similiar fashion as of getting assault terminators and being granted the option to upgrade their hammers to become lightning claws

Edit*
What I also realized this would do is make it so that gk players dont feel in a rush for them because they are not as well rounded and blatantly<<<<<<< better than the units in lower tiers notably purifiers, interceptors, and strikes,

though I should have thrown in purgation as well, because they can use psycannons on the move as well

Those are the problems.

[saltychipmunk]

well , trying to enforce the role of support unit is a fine effort . But you cant nerf or attempt to remove a role from a unit with out making changes to the performance of the other units.

The fact of the matter is that no other unit fulfills the direct damage roll. Cant nerf ist direct damage , because the very act of doing so would further deprive the already limited gk arsenal of a critical tool.

And if we are trying to deliberately limit the number of ist sarges or ist squads in general by making the leaders expensive , then said leaders really do need to be worth the investment.

and for 25 power the current frag grenade is not worth it, there are two other upgrades on the ist that are functionally identical to it . Make it a normal frag grenade already (one that can kill things) or give them back the passive speed buff . 25 power is a huge set back, it needs to be rewarded with something that has potency to it.

Frankly I dont see a problem with people using ist like guardians or shoota boys. that build has its weaknesses and its strengths. And we should put more stock in improving the performance of efficiency of the other t1 gk units before trying to murder their one universally used unit.

[Element]

well , trying to enforce the role of support unit is a fine effort . But you cant nerf or attempt to remove a role from a unit with out making changes to the performance of the other units.

The fact of the matter is that no other unit fulfills the direct damage roll. Cant nerf ist direct damage , because the very act of doing so would further deprive the already limited gk arsenal of a critical tool.

And if we are trying to deliberately limit the number of ist sarges or ist squads in general by making the leaders expensive , then said leaders really do need to be worth the investment.

and for 25 power the current frag grenade is not worth it, there are two other upgrades on the ist that are functionally identical to it . Make it a normal frag grenade already (one that can kill things) or give them back the passive speed buff . 25 power is a huge set back, it needs to be rewarded with something that has potency to it.

Frankly I dont see a problem with people using ist like guardians or shoota boys. that build has its weaknesses and its strengths. And we should put more stock in improving the performance of efficiency of the other t1 gk units before trying to murder their one universally used unit.

I would certainly agree with that, if it weren't for the fact that this already happened. Back when gk first came out 2x stormtroopers with strikes and there high number of sprcials more or less acted like sluggas with 2x shootas. Or banshees with 2x guardians. However in both cases stormtroopers are certainly inferior to shootas and guardians. Shootas just do more piercing damage, and guardians are capable of laying down perfect cover, get fleet, and a grenade alongside having embolden when fully upgraded. In the meantime strikes> banshees and sluggas until those 2 units got upgraded to which in T2 one could pull out purifiers or upgrade to nemesis focus which created internal balance with the purifiers to be fielded. What I'm getting at is that, this faction has already past the trial of playing like a non marine faction, it's probably time that they actually play more like a standard marine faction, where strikes are the main ranged dps support dealers in T1, and stormtroopers are the back up support.

I would personally like either of those 2 options on the stormtroopers but as of now, buffing them in anyway without first addressing the other units would only make the problem draw out further.

[saltychipmunk]

ist do 6.4 dps , shootas do 7 and guardians do 8, keep in mind that ist have a much shorter firing time and a much longer reload time.

three of them can alpha kill scout models on the first firing cycle. the difference in total dps is only noticeable between gu and ist , but not ist and shoota boys (not factoring upgrades) .

and all the ist need do is get one or two model kills , and the dps between 3 gu and 3 ist would be the same . Considering the much higher alpha strike on the ist it is totally possible to get those model kills without taking losses .

Remember fundamentally the issues with these units are not their core stats , rather their upgrades.
Strikes dont need to be the ranged unit for gk t1 , infact they don't ever have to be that . which is why i was perplexed that their upgrades do almost nothing to augment their melee / spell caster aspects.

they are unit that seems ritually designed to have weapons that fire on the move , yet they get psi cannons.
they are a unit that is clearly melee oriented , yet their psy bolts does ranged and doesnt even touch melee.
and they are a unit that clearly should be using those two support abilities .. ALOT , yet there is nothing on them that augments that role outside of the initial purchase of the justicar.

gk are their own race , i say let them do their own thing . let them be full on spell casters .

in that same sense , we dont need ist to be the scouts and heretics of gk. they don't need to just be a copy of two other races. let them be good dps dealers. its definitely more fun than having a race that is , tacs but with bigger swords and scouts but with more models .

[Element]

ist do 6.4 dps , shootas do 7 and guardians do 8, keep in mind that ist have a much shorter firing time and a much longer reload time.

three of them can alpha kill scout models on the first firing cycle. the difference in total dps is only noticeable between gu and ist , but not ist and shoota boys (not factoring upgrades) .

and all the ist need do is get one or two model kills , and the dps between 3 gu and 3 ist would be the same . Considering the much higher alpha strike on the ist it is totally possible to get those model kills without taking losses .

Remember fundamentally the issues with these units are not their core stats , rather their upgrades.
Strikes dont need to be the ranged unit for gk t1 , infact they don't ever have to be that . which is why i was perplexed that their upgrades do almost nothing to augment their melee / spell caster aspects.

they are unit that seems ritually designed to have weapons that fire on the move , yet they get psi cannons.
they are a unit that is clearly melee oriented , yet their psy bolts does ranged and doesnt even touch melee.
and they are a unit that clearly should be using those two support abilities .. ALOT , yet there is nothing on them that augments that role outside of the initial purchase of the justicar.

gk are their own race , i say let them do their own thing . let them be full on spell casters .

in that same sense , we dont need ist to be the scouts and heretics of gk. they don't need to just be a copy of two other races. let them be good dps dealers. its definitely more fun than having a race that is , tacs but with bigger swords and scouts but with more models .

It really can only go either way though mate =/ either they act like shootas, guardians, termigaunts (though granted with burst damage) or they act in a similiar manner as scouts and heretics. I just know personally that once those upgrades on those other factions come out (because they will) stormtroopers really cant compete even with the burst damage. 2x shootas/ 2x guardians/2x termigaunts really do take the cake in the engagements and it becomes very noticeable in T2 when those units are fully upgraded. So to try and make them into that manner of being able to go toe to toe with them... a lot would have to happen. That's just my personal take on the subject matter.Not that I'm outright disagreeing with such a course of action being taken. Maybe a poll or something could help clear this up..

[Torpid]

Well that's precisely the problem. You're forced to go dual IST at the least in order to maintain proper map control and/or be able to deal with melee squads/heroes (becuase often you want a rhino there and you need 2 IST to repair that thing).

In T1 the BC is a nightmare for the foe to deal with and the WATH buff is very significant. Also, in T1 SS do a good job bleeding the enemy's fragile ranged units and not bleeding themselves due to their awesome hp and HI armour. So the SS can tank vs those shootas/guardians while the IST run in, fire a burst and run out. That tactic is effective and works and allows GK to be useful at something in T1 - hit and run bleed, they're like an offensive IG in T1.

Problems start once you hit T2 and the IST are suddenly useless due to the fact that their damage doesn't get buffed any higher and nor does their hp which is left at 750 when every other squad in the game that performs a similar role gets huge buffs. Shootas get two upgrades for a start and their nob grants extra firepower come T2. Termagants get ES and ranged synapse. CSM and Tacs get their leaders/upgrades. Guardsmen get the commy and plasma guns. Guardians get their warlock, who adds huge buffs to their survivability. IST get a frankly bad upgrade and that's it.

Considering the overpriced nature of the IST sarge for what he currently does in T1 I think a lot of things would be solved by causing the IST sarge to grant an additional 250hp once the GK player hits T2. It would improve the scaling of IST hugely and further encourage rhino play and sort out the problem of GK T2 req-starvation quite a bit.

[Element]

Well that's precisely the problem. You're forced to go dual IST at the least in order to maintain proper map control and/or be able to deal with melee squads/heroes (becuase often you want a rhino there and you need 2 IST to repair that thing).

In T1 the BC is a nightmare for the foe to deal with and the WATH buff is very significant. Also, in T1 SS do a good job bleeding the enemy's fragile ranged units and not bleeding themselves due to their awesome hp and HI armour. So the SS can tank vs those shootas/guardians while the IST run in, fire a burst and run out. That tactic is effective and works and allows GK to be useful at something in T1 - hit and run bleed, they're like an offensive IG in T1.

Problems start once you hit T2 and the IST are suddenly useless due to the fact that their damage doesn't get buffed any higher and nor does their hp which is left at 750 when every other squad in the game that performs a similar role gets huge buffs. Shootas get two upgrades for a start and their nob grants extra firepower come T2. Termagants get ES and ranged synapse. CSM and Tacs get their leaders/upgrades. Guardsmen get the commy and plasma guns. Guardians get their warlock, who adds huge buffs to their survivability. IST get a frankly bad upgrade and that's it.

Considering the overpriced nature of the IST sarge for what he currently does in T1 I think a lot of things would be solved by causing the IST sarge to grant an additional 250hp once the GK player hits T2. It would improve the scaling of IST hugely and further encourage rhino play and sort out the problem of GK T2 req-starvation quite a bit.

Do you really think 250 extra hp would be enough though? I mean, even then... the damage (while you have burst damage which is very nice) still doesn't relate to the damage coming out of those squads when they are upgraded ... (smoke shell alongside the rhino only goes so far when it cant reinforce squads) And one has to take into account once again the manner in which they do damage. In a large engagement where you need to keep the IQST in the engagement that burst damage levels off and decreases as time progresses (model losses for staying in), where as in normal circumstances you burst, you kite, and you burst again. in the case of shootas, guardians, termigaunts, guardsman etc. The manner in which they do damage, and the respectable nature in which they do damage, still would be quite an advantage over these guys, especially given the fact that remains which is (all of these armies have the ability to reinforce on the field) which still wages for great concern, where they can keep there full effectiveness with consistent damage by keeping full model count as to where, IQST burst damage will only further decrease due to model losses.

Therefore, I can't see how they would ever be on par with those squads, because the RHINO has a lascannon in T2, as opposed to the ability to reinforce. Now if that Rhino gained the ability to reinforce in T3 if it has bought the upgraded armor upgrade (which I suggested in my thread) to 1. scale itself as well as this squad because they are very important throughout the whole game 2. because GK don't have a dedicated T3 tank as is, and the Rhino with lascannon is the closest thing to it, and should be compensated by different scaling 3. to enable both of these squads to have some field presence and respectability (because one does not always get out a L.C. every game as they try and get out termi-varients) then I could define the 250 hp buff as worth while, but once again, we reach the inevitable. That some other unit in T1 need to be adressed in order to make this squad perfom to how it should based on the mannerism in which they play, their role, their damage/to bring out its best potential.

One can easily say that 2x stormtroopers are the best means of successfully keeping map control and whatnot alongside the repair with the rhino, but nobody knows what the impact will be when purgation and interceptors become viable choice options hopefully again

Which is why I suggest tackling the other squads first, then coming back to this one as opposed to making this squad even more blatantly the best choice unit to take so we dont just see 3x IQST or 2x strikes as a means of being competitive. Competitive should not be 1 or 2 defininitive builds; It should be a vast quantity based on that of the ideal goals of the player,in that of what they want to do when they have freedom to customize based on certain match-ups,

[saltychipmunk]

in 1v1 , you want a rhino by simple nature of how much more spread out the units are in the early game than in other modes.

but on smaller maps and the vast majority of the 2v2 / 3v3 maps , the rhino is not always a good choice.
Also you need to stop viewing the gk rhino as comparable to other troop transports. it gave up that right when it was put in t1 and was given a gunner.

the 250 extra hp would be nice , but only if cael fixes the plasma guns to actually be an upgrade. but that doesnt really solve the issue that in t1 they are not worth the investment past getting one for detecting.

you get more than one shoota nob for the ridiculous field presence they add to shootaboys and they are effective in t1 because of the combination of higher dps and high model hp. scouts get the frag grenade which is a major threat to everything and the heretic champion adds a huge hp boost for a single model and good melee damage all the other t1 sarges are much cheaper to balance out their lack of punch.

people have and do get more than one of those upgrades in t1 because they stand on their own , independent of t2. and really the 15% damage buff in t2 for shoota nobs has probably more to do with the high pop of the nob (5 is huge) .

the ist sarge offers basically 1 models worth of ranged dps , some melee dps that never ever is used and a very weak grenade.

and if you dont bother getting the sarges in t1, why would you delay t2 upgrades to get them?


as for the notion that SS are good bleeders, i find the opposite to be true. most opponents ive fought will simply tie them up with the hero or ignore them all together while they go right for the ist. SS do decent dps , but because their dps is uniform with no real damage spikes it is very easy for players to know how long a unit like say guardians can tank them before model losses.

the SS usually have to rely on the spike damage of the ist to get the enemy units hp down enough for model kills, something that is easier said than done , if the opponent is directly going after the ist squads.

the whole potency of spike damage is its ability to trick players into misjudging things.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Just brainstorming here: If the problem of the IST is their T2 and T3 performance, why not buff their Plasma Gun upgrade?

[Torpid]

Because they have absolutely no health; these are no guardsmen, they have about half the hp of fully upgraded guardsmen while currently doing nowhere near the dps in melee or ranged, not repairing as fast as a single squad and bleeding a hell of a lot more. 750hp in T2 cannot serve as a viable damage dealer.

[Element]

in 1v1 , you want a rhino by simple nature of how much more spread out the units are in the early game than in other modes.

but on smaller maps and the vast majority of the 2v2 / 3v3 maps , the rhino is not always a good choice.
Also you need to stop viewing the gk rhino as comparable to other troop transports. it gave up that right when it was put in t1 and was given a gunner.

I'm confused, I never viewed the gk rhino as comparable to other troop transports. It's because it's so different, being available in T1 and the primary manner in which it gets a lascannon option upgrade and not your standard reinforcement as well as looking at the faction as a whole, which is there is no T3 dedicated tank that this tank should IMO scale differently than the other troop transports, as when the rhino does come out, it usually does become vital to your force of operations and the scaling potential of IQST. However, in T3 both of those units become virtually non-existent, in terms of the damage they do and their survivability; therefore because they won't be major units getting in the mainstay of the action but more towards the back laying down covering fire, at least they can truly maximize their usage by enabling other non termi variant units to reinforce off the rhino when T3 is reached, as well as babysitting the IQST for the inevitable huge amounts of model losses they will begin to inquire due to much stronger ranged units being on the field.

[saltychipmunk]

well i have been saying for a while that the plasma guns need a buff , cael says they currently arent doing the dps they should be , but even their label dps is pretty weak .

the gk rhino has the added benefit of being t1 meaning it gains exp earlier and it gets a real av weapon for cheaper than the falcon .

having it able to upgrade on the field and reinforce mid fight could be really bad for balance. as i can think of many situations where it could be used to trick people into staying in un-winnable engagments for too long.

the best we could hope for is the reinforce being tied to the bolter upgrade exclusively.

as for the ist they either need serious hp buffs and damage buffs or their abilities need teeth.

[Forestradio]

Do 3x IST into rhino, t2, VA+libby, t3, wargear+terminators in 3v3. Hilariously effective and if you manage it properly you'll never ever bleed, have to retreat, or even lose models. I'd attach a replay but the board quota has been reached...

If you let your IST bleed you that much in any game mode, you're doing it wrong with BC, WATH+cover, and messing up your positioning.

Is the sarge a little lackluster? Maaaaaaaaybe. You cannot buff IST however without severely throwing the entire t1 roster of GK out of whack. And their t2 performance is fine, they are not designed to tank any sort of damage be it just piercing or AoE, hide them in your rhino.

My solution would be to avoid getting a sarge entirely unless you need detection and instead get BC wargear or a rhino as your first power purchases.

Also, none of the buff suggestions in any way deal with the remaining gap in the GK foster: countering single entities.

[saltychipmunk]

but your very post proves there is an issue

your solution to their squish problem is buy a rhino. as in for ist to work the rhino is needed.
then you go on to say dont buy the sarges , yeah i know .

its not really balance if your central point is basically dont invest in them and hide them in a tank .

[Forestradio]

You said your concern was in team games, that requires a fundamentally different approach than other game modes. Go try my build (3x ISt into rhino, VA+libby, terminators), trust me, you'll float a ton of req even if you put down all the gens for your team since you have low upkeep and won't bleed at all with the rhino. Same thing with 3x scouts.

Buying the IST sarge is a matter of play style. When I saw the IST changes in the patch notes I stopped buying the sarge altogether in beta 11 (unless vs detectors) to prepare, and I have never liked the nade launchers, so even now I prefer to keep them vanilla, not due to balance, it's just how I approach the faction, I like Blessed Aegis on the BC as my first power purchase in almost every MU, either that or the SS flamer if I can bash. It all boils down to preference, you can do some nasty things with IST nade+ purgation flamers if you position correctly (keep purgs BEHIND the strike squad until the engagement properly kicks off).

IST trait is their burst damage like scouts have high speed and tics have high melee skill/doomblast, neither they nor nor DAs nor shootas nor termas can tank in the early stages of the game, and that's fine how it is. Comparisons aren't valid when you just look at hp and dps of IST/shootas/termas, you must consider everything else that plays into their performance like hero synergy, globals, etc

[Torpid]

I never buy the IST sarge in T1 anymore either.


Hmm, I wonder why nobody these days buys the IST sarge in T1 anymore

[HandSome SoddiNg]

I never buy the IST sarge in T1 anymore either.


Hmm, I wonder why nobody these days buys the IST sarge in T1 anymore

Bit too Excessive for 25 energy purchase ? 20 energy would be reasonably priced

[Forestradio]

I never buy the IST sarge in T1 anymore either.


Hmm, I wonder why nobody these days buys the IST sarge in T1 anymore

Two people not doing something=nobody doing it. gg no re

If there's an actual issue to address (and I'm still not convinced that there is) then the frag nade ability itself should be looked at.

[Torpid]

Three people just said they don't do it?

[Broodwich]

what are strike squads?

[Raffa]

If your IST are too squishy, you buy a rhino, which is a fully functional and effective unit when used properly. Alternatively, buy the Blessed Aegis, naht Canticle, and try to damage-sponge more with the BC.

IST Sarge unfortunately is just not worth it for 25 power, even with the grenade. I agree it was overperforming before at 15(!), esp as a detector, but at 25 power it's not really worth it unless you're specifically trying to keep Nobz (with no WeBo) away from you. Although it is ofc mandatory vs heroes.

20 power would be fair, given the synergy with the Rhino for countering Lictors etc..