2.2 beta

Elite (and related) releases.
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Lag
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Lag » Sun 11 Aug, 2013 11:24 pm

Raffa wrote:Lord General Stabilisers
1.5 health regen per model is still ott. It makes 3x gu easily the best starting point for an IG army in any game mode. Don't want to name anyone but there's been more than one game I've seen in the last few days where superior micro from a very strong player has literally counted for nothing against a blob of guardsmen being healed by this thing. It should not be an "I winzz like every engagement with my super duper attakk moove skillzzz" button.
Suggestion - Reduce health regen to 0.5, leave the cost the same.

The game where I used the heal, after which you called me a lamer without even checking out the changelog, I was microing a Storm squad with Meltas individually, a Manticore, focused Plasma GM to HI stuff and Flame GM to Tics and ~ units (while losing the third squad to focused fire while they were under heal in fact). You lost the game because of the IG nuke (which I still believe is OP) and a few successful Manticor barrages on stuff which was bottlenecked - which killed about 30-40% percent of your armies. My point is that your argument about inferior micro to superior one is rather stupid (if I see the way you draw conclusions from one game I can suppose you will do it that way in other similar situations), even though you might be right about it still being op. Your proposed solution is silly though, as it renders a rather expensive t1 item nearly useless and the value is absolutely not the problem here. The only problem with the LG armor is that it still seems like the values don't get halved when units under effect are in combat, and it still affects non-IG units which gives it insane advantage in team games.
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Dark Riku
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 1:03 am

Please make the portrait switching an option.
Entering buildings or using transports is making me go coocoo.

Or make it so that it doesn't switch positions when using garrisons/transports
(Already being looked into if I'm not mistaking)
And make your hero fixed on position 1 regardless of group he gets placed in.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Torpid » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 1:28 am

Raffa wrote:Hi all,

Since the beta was released a few days ago I've played it quite extensively and, although it is too early to make any definitive conclusions, a few balance issues are IMO standing out as needing another look at.

Chaos Sorcerer Subjugate
The Sorcerer's subjugate is now quite redundant. I have tried to make it work in its new form, I really have. I appreciate that the subjugate/abyss combo was just broken but making the targeted squad immune to damage cancels out all other combos like setting raging hugbots on them/allied manti strikes/blastmaster ground attack/etc and it was the potential for these kinds of combos that, for me, made the wargear situationally worth the 150/50 investment. I know there are still a thousand and one uses for controlling an enemy squad of your choice, but it does not last particularly long and does not justify the cost at all.
Suggestion - Preferably revert to 2.1 state, or if not decrease cost to ~100/30. If reverting then if possible tweak it to reduce damage from abyss to 0.25. Dunno if this is possible though.

Chaos Predator - Nurgle
The 0.5 health regen on a vehicle is pretty useless...the huge pitfall for this upgrade is you are investing expensively into something extremely specialised and sacrificing all av potential. How on earth can you justify this choice against the beast that is the MoK predator, or better yet leaving it vanilla unless you need hard av and then get a MoT pred?
Suggestion - Increase health regen extensively, to 1.5 at least, or make it a free but permanent upgrade (even then I doubt you'd see it much but at least it would have a purpose in life...)

Webway Gates
I do not want these to be not worth the investment or never seen, however the hit they have taken so far in the beta has not solved the problem at all. The issue is the insane map control they provide coupled with just op squad wipe potential; giving more co for killing them is a nice perk but neither discourages nor sufficiently punishes flagrant spamming of gates. A longer build time is nothing more than a minor inconvenience for the Eldar player. Please take the opportunity to finally get these fixed.
Suggestion - Increase cost to 75 red & only allow the respective player's units to use the gates (though the second potential fix is from a 2v2 perspective, gates are actually more of a problem in 1v1 IMO)

Wraithlord Brightlance
100% fotm is very strong. It chases vehicles so hard it's practically impossible to kite. Worth remembering it loses no splash damage, i.e. anti-infantry potential, from buying the Brightlance unlike other walkers when given an av weapon.
Suggestion - I'm actually ok with this as I thought the previous Brightlance was underperforming, but not quite at the current 100/40 price. 130/40 please :)

Lord General Stabilisers
1.5 health regen per model is still ott. It makes 3x gu easily the best starting point for an IG army in any game mode. Don't want to name anyone but there's been more than one game I've seen in the last few days where superior micro from a very strong player has literally counted for nothing against a blob of guardsmen being healed by this thing. It should not be an "I winzz like every engagement with my super duper attakk moove skillzzz" button.
Suggestion - Reduce health regen to 0.5, leave the cost the same.

I know it is early but I have been playing the hell it of this beta and I think all of these are outstanding issues.


Subjugate - yup, totally agree with you on this, it's really rather crappy now. Not even worth it. Really didn't see it being much of a problem in the first place. Yes, it was obnoxious, but it was just as counterable as warp throw but it was t3 and cost a hell of a lot more than warp throw. Don't understand the justification for this change at all tbh.

Gates - Agreed, 75 red cost on topof the current changes, however stopping allies from using them is not necessary I don't think, especially since there will be fewer due to their higher cost.

Nurgle predator - Disagree. This thing is really strong at the moment and that health regen is extremely useful, it just stacks wonderfully over time, I mean sure it won't usually mean you can out-tank damage or anything but overall it makes it very durable alongside the melee resistance and the bonus hp. The tank fills a nice role atm I think, basically serving as a anti infantry weapon platform akin to the land raider redeemer but of course toned down. It's great if you already have some AV from t2 and get to t3 first. Loving this thing at the moment.

WL BL - Yeah, this thing is a bit silly in my opinion. It makes transport play against eldar pretty futile, not to mention when supported by the farseer the WL suddenly becomes a hard counter to t3 tanks and walkers (fortune/doom/guide). I mean the brightlance does cost a fair amount, I would suggest just toning down the damage slightly so that the WL can't kill transports/tanks instantly with guide etc, maybe 10%?

Stabilisers - Yup, this wargear is still OP. I mean the armour was not intended to be used in combat for a reason. The ability to heal your entire army which is pretty much 100% ranged and full of high model-low hp squads is just ridiculous really. It's simply outright too powerful. Ever since the change was made to make it affect units in combat it has been bad. I would suggest decreasing the price of to 25 power and making it restore energy and hp but only outside of combat, making it a good synergy with chimeras/long-winded VP camping scenarios/catachans/storms, also decrease the energy cost of it to 30.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby no-name » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 1:56 am

I'm really not a fan of the 'make gates more expensive' idea people have.

So i was thinking, what if gates were accessible to the enemy as well? So if someone bothers to send a spotter round the map and finds a gate, he'll be able to enter it and see where all the gates are and if he's quick also move his own forces quickly through the webway. Would need to add a self-destruct or scuttle button to the webway gate as well though i think. With a timer for how long it takes to scuttle. say 5 seconds.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 2:47 am

if the fotm damage of the bright lance is too high at 100 and too low at 50 try 75.

i'm against letting everyone into gates because of the lore, and because it would become a cluster fuck.

i hate subjugate and i want it gone. it takes a fight and gives one player a net loss of two units because he lost one and is now fighting an additional enemy one. in addition it breaks the balance system that dow2 has because the game has so many specialized counters.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Torpid » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 2:50 am

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:if the fotm damage of the bright lance is too high at 100 and too low at 50 try 75.

i'm against letting everyone into gates because of the lore, and because it would become a cluster fuck.

i hate subjugate and i want it gone. it takes a fight and gives one player a net loss of two units because he lost one and is now fighting an additional enemy one. in addition it breaks the balance system that dow2 has because the game has so many specialized counters.


But warp throw does the exact same thing, costs less, is in t2 and is easier to execute. Also 75% makes sense.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Vapor » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 3:01 am

You can retreat out of warp throw also it doesn't let you exhaust all abilities. A few days ago I lost a warp spider squad that was teleported behind enemy chaos termies, csm, tics and plague marines.

If people really feel the ability needs a buff then let me suggest 15 s duration instead of 10.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Torpid » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 3:24 am

fv100 wrote:You can retreat out of warp throw also it doesn't let you exhaust all abilities. A few days ago I lost a warp spider squad that was teleported behind enemy chaos termies, csm, tics and plague marines.

If people really feel the ability needs a buff then let me suggest 15 s duration instead of 10.


Retreating does not warrant a counter in the slightest. Effectively it makes warp throw a longer ranged menacing visage that has an aoe in t2. Or, you lose squads to eldar shenanigans.

I hardly find subjugate any stronger than purgatus/commy basilisk/'eavy armour. It costs a lot and requires the sorceror to be at the frontlines and immobilises him.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Vapor » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 3:32 am

Well if your point is that warp throw is bullshit then I would agree. It's too entrenched in dow2 at this point to be removed and it's all flashy and eldar and shit but some very ridiculous things can be done with it.

If you're orkz you could probably counter it by over dere'ing your units away before the throw is cast. :-P

Another way to buff subjugate would be to make the sorcerer invulnerable for the duration of the spell, however I suspect the cost may need to be increased to 200/50 to justify that.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 4:01 am

fv100 wrote:Well if your point is that warp throw is bullshit then I would agree. It's too entrenched in dow2 at this point to be removed and it's all flashy and eldar and shit but some very ridiculous things can be done with it.

If you're orkz you could probably counter it by over dere'ing your units away before the throw is cast. :-P

Another way to buff subjugate would be to make the sorcerer invulnerable for the duration of the spell, however I suspect the cost may need to be increased to 200/50 to justify that.


In all honestly it was fine before, but if things are to kept as they are now, just give it more range, so that the sorcerer can still be killed if it's careless or abit harder to reach if used at max range.

WL BL - Yeah, this thing is a bit silly in my opinion. It makes transport play against eldar pretty futile, not to mention when supported by the farseer the WL suddenly becomes a hard counter to t3 tanks and walkers (fortune/doom/guide). I mean the brightlance does cost a fair amount, I would suggest just toning down the damage slightly so that the WL can't kill transports/tanks instantly with guide etc, maybe 10%?


it's impossible to use any kind of transport vs eldar now, their own transport already countered the others and now the WL does too, aswell as it counters tanks, as things stand now in a mirror it's better to get a WL with brightlance to take down an enemy fireprism, damage on the move should be reduced by 25%-50%, damage while standing still should stay the same.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby FiSH » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 5:46 am

Ace of Swords wrote:(regarding WL BL)
aswell as it counters tanks


are you serious? that thing does 20 dps. for comparison's sake, venom brood with 50% moving accuracy does 18 dps (36 x 0.5). people are taking this WL BL thing like it's the most overpowered thing ever. why all this outcry? WL BL is now EXPENSIVE. wraithlord is not cheap to begin with in terms of req, BL upgrade costs a bunch of power now. unlike other walkers, it doesn't even have an active ability.

also, WL BL countering transports is honestly nothing new, and getting WL BL for that purpose is honestly a waste of money IMO. falcon's cheaper and gets the job done just as well, if melee closes in just hop in instead of slashing them.

EDIT: i can see arguements for 75%, bringing it back down to 50% seems silly, because SO~~ MANY~~ people were getting the BL upgrade when it was 50%, right??
srsly, noone has a problem when the assault dread has 100% accuracy on the move, but when eldar gets something like that everyone hates it :roll:
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 6:40 am

The question here is that when any other dread buys a ranged upgrade (Mark of Tzeentch Chaos Dread, Assault Cannon, Multi-melta) his melee damage is reduced AND the melee splash is removed.

Wraithlord retains his melee damage/melee splash with any ranged upgrade.

Maybe WL counters transports before, but now with 100% accuracy-on-the-move makes transports even more weak against eldar. Not mention if you support him with Farseer buffs.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 10:09 am

my issue with subjugation is not balance related, the ability could very well be made balanced. it really pisses me off though because of how it works.

the falcon does light av damage. it is also slower, even without shield, than all other transports. that's the trade off for doing av damage. it's also horrendously expensive.

the brightlance doesn't function any differently than before, it just does more damage in one situation. if there are issues reduce the damage in that situation, not shuffle everything else around.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Asmon » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 12:04 pm

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:The question here is that when any other dread buys a ranged upgrade (Mark of Tzeentch Chaos Dread, Assault Cannon, Multi-melta) his melee damage is reduced AND the melee splash is removed.

Wraithlord retains his melee damage/melee splash with any ranged upgrade.


Should we compare AC Dread ranged damage to WL shuriken's? Or MM Dread's to WL BL's? Not to mention that AC Dread and TDread get an ability with their upgrade.

Also since when a walker can counter a tank? You must play quite badly to get your tank in range of a walker.

About subjugation, making CS immune to damage is a stupid idea. Also, you can still self spike a subjugate unit if you know how to count.

And Torpid, please amaze me with your warp throw skillz since you seem to know a lot about it.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Kvek » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 12:16 pm

Warp Throw is OP, just warp throw shit into shees/singu/nades.
I know it's not easy to warp throw into singu/nades, but still, one succesful grenade, move shees activate Swift Movement and ....
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby treehugger » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 12:46 pm

Hello there,

I have not contributed to this forum before- but just a thought re: subjugate- instead of making the subjugated unit invulnerable would it be possible to make the abilities duration variable depending on how close the target was when it was cast?

For example would there be any benefit in having a longer duration from casting it at point blank range vs a decreasing duration from targeting a unit at max range? Or just reducing its range altogether?

In this way the sorcerer would have to take bigger risks on the frontline in order to get the maximum from his spell and I suppose it would be difficult to nuke a unit he was right next to as timing would be more difficult to avoid nuking himself. On the other hand if he only had domination of a unit that was far away for few seconds it would be more difficult to wipe them using the abyss combo (as it is so much more effective in the center).

I'm not sure how feasible it would be to have variable range/ duration on an ability (I suspect it would be difficult) but it seems that the spell's use would become a lot more subtle if this were done?
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Lag » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 1:53 pm

This is completely offtopic, but are you the guy who used to play Sacrifice a lot?
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Ace of Swords » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 2:33 pm

also, WL BL countering transports is honestly nothing new, and getting WL BL for that purpose is honestly a waste of money IMO.


You get the WL because it's a walker, forces AV, is a good melee counter/line breaker.

You then the the BL if you need it, and i tought it was pretty obvious, it's quite stupid otherwise isn't it?

The thing now is that you CAN'T get a transport to beign with when you face eldar becuase you know that everything they can get in t2 is an hard counter to it, spiders,falcon and now the WL too, if before you could escape a WL now it's a dead transport 100% of the time.

DIT: i can see arguements for 75%, bringing it back down to 50% seems silly, because SO~~ MANY~~ people were getting the BL upgrade when it was 50%, right??


Because the Tdred was nerfed to 50% accuracy? effectively making it doing occasionally even 0 damage on the move, and the Tdred is way more on the move than the WL since it can't do it's full damage in a single shot.

Also l2read i said it should do less damage only on the move and do it's normal damage when standing still.
srsly, noone has a problem when the assault dread has 100% accuracy on the move, but when eldar gets something like that everyone hates it :roll:


Can't answer with anything else beside hurr durr.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Lag » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 2:36 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Because the Tdred was nerfed to 50% accuracy? effectively making it doing occasionally even 0 damage on the move, and the Tdred is way more on the move than the WL since it can't do it's full damage in a single shot.

Tdread gets an ability, is less squishy than the WL (so it is way safer to try and give chase), and uses its newly acquired weapon to rape both vehicles and light infantry from good range. How you can even compare those two upgrades is beyond me.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby FiSH » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 3:11 pm

comparing chaos dread to WL -> +1 to what lag said. in any case, t dread rapes WL. k dread rapes WL. on top of that, chaos dread is cheap in req for a req hungry race.

do less damage on the move and more standing still -> the outcome is the same thing as accuracy on the move + or - one shot, but brightlance fires quite often anyways, so it's the same thing.

WL does splash damage -> SM dread inspires on melee kill, quite a huge bonus if you consider how SM works. won't compare them to chaos dreads melee because 1. chaos dread starts out with awesome ranged weapon 2. t dread is like a tank in T2

imagine playing orks against assault dread for a change, tankbustas are not an option unless you also get a wartruck. certain units force the enemy to react in a specific manner, that's just it.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Torpid » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 3:14 pm

Huh? The Tdread has 1k hp, the WL has 1.2k hp and is more effective in melee. It's way safer and way more effective to chase vehicles with the WL than the Tdread.

I'm pretty sure the WL w/ BL would beat the Tdread 1v1 too.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Lag » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 3:51 pm

Hm, you are right about the health.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 7:35 pm

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:i hate subjugate and i want it gone. it takes a fight and gives one player a net loss of two units because he lost one and is now fighting an additional enemy one. in addition it breaks the balance system that dow2 has because the game has so many specialized counters.


FiSH wrote:....
it doesn't even have an active ability.
....
Welcome to every other race where abilities aren't given to everyone and their mothers.

FiSH wrote:....
srsly, noone has a problem when the assault dread has 100% accuracy on the move, but when eldar gets something like that everyone hates it :roll:
Since when does the assault cannon do av dmg now? °_O I second the hurdur.


The Wraithlord is arguably the best walker. It's the cheapest Walker and loses no efficiency in close combat when upgrading WITH a ranged weapon.
It can even get a self heal in T3!
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 9:30 pm

Asmon wrote:
Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:The question here is that when any other dread buys a ranged upgrade (Mark of Tzeentch Chaos Dread, Assault Cannon, Multi-melta) his melee damage is reduced AND the melee splash is removed.

Wraithlord retains his melee damage/melee splash with any ranged upgrade.


Should we compare AC Dread ranged damage to WL shuriken's? Or MM Dread's to WL BL's? Not to mention that AC Dread and TDread get an ability with their upgrade

Should we compare the support that Eldar could give (specially the Farseer) to the Wraithlord with the support that SM or Chaos could give to their dreads?

Asmon wrote:Also since when a walker can counter a tank? You must play quite badly to get your tank in range of a walker.

And Torpid, please amaze me with your warp throw skillz since you seem to know a lot about it.

With an adequate snare and some support any walker (maybe deffdread not) could counter a tank.

It's not usual, but it's possible.

And Warp Throw have a lot more uses than Warp Throw + Banshees/Grenades/Singularity.

LOL I'm been reading the wiki and the MoT Chaos Dread have 37.5% accuraccy against tanks/transports/dreads on the move.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Arbit » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 9:52 pm

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:i hate subjugate and i want it gone. it takes a fight and gives one player a net loss of two units because he lost one and is now fighting an additional enemy one.

As much as I hate subjugate, I have to say this isn't true. Look at it like this

5 units chaos
5 units SM (for example)

Sorc uses subjugate, loses control of sorc, so down to 4 units, but gains the one he has stolen, so back up to 5. SM loses one unit for the duration of the ability, so he's at 4. Final count - 5 vs. 4 = chaos +1 unit

The reason I dislike subjugate so much is that it is the teabag coup de grace against an opponent that is already outsquadded. If you're competing 6 squads vs 4 and he gets the pick of your best infantry squads each engagement (since it'll be off cooldown practically every engagement) you're now competing 6 vs 3 and you might as well just gg at that point, since in all likelyhood you won't have the ranged dps necessary to take down the sorc and break the subjugate. In a more evenly matched game you have a decent chance to take down the sorc and break the subjugate, in which case the wargear doesn't feel op.

IMO the most "fair" way to change the ability would be to just make it go berserk and attack the nearest unit like a raging Kdread, but the ability would have to rebalanced from the ground up in that case and would provoke a huge outcry from sorc players I'm betting ;)
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 10:43 pm

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:LOL I'm been reading the wiki and the MoT Chaos Dread have 37.5% accuraccy against tanks/transports/dreads on the move.

Should be 50% Elite wiki states 100% even still.
Dunno where you get your numbers from.
Last edited by Dark Riku on Mon 12 Aug, 2013 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Mon 12 Aug, 2013 11:02 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:LOL I'm been reading the wiki and the MoT Chaos Dread have 37.5% accuraccy against tanks/transports/dreads on the move.

Should be 50%
Elite wiki states 100% even still. dunno where you get your numbers from.

50% FOTM
75% against large size (tanks, dreads, transports) for the weapon family.

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/weaponf ... fam=rocket

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/CSM_Mis ... ingle_Shot
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Tue 13 Aug, 2013 4:08 am

the t dread missile launcher is odd because it's a ballistic weapon. it seldom hits with every missile but usually hits with at least one. the spread is high and it does splash damage which makes it very, very hard to avoid. on several occasions i've dodged every missile except the last one, which happened to land in the direction i was moving, and lost the vehicle. makes doing dps and accuracy calculations hard.

warp spiders are a soft counter and a snare; a single squad will seldom kill anything. even two won't kill much other than a wartrukk.

the falcon is slower than any other transport and the only transport with AV; keep your transports away from it.

same deal with the wraithlord except it does more damage and is tougher but slower.

i really don't get what multiple pages of discussion is worth though; just make the fotm accuracy lower if the bright lance is being to effective. it doesn't take mass comparisons to tangentially related units to figure that out.
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby no-name » Tue 13 Aug, 2013 10:53 pm

Nuclear Arbitor wrote:i'm against letting everyone into gates because of the lore, and because it would become a cluster fuck.

anyone can travel in the webway, it's why gates that get discovered get destroyed by the eldar rather than left/abandoned (often) and also present a great risk if not destroyed, there was a table-top official game where abaddon tried to seize a webway gate from the eldar and eldrad + whole bloody seer council went out their way to stop him. not every joe knows how to get inside but it's far from some grand secret that only ahriman knows.

i don't see how it would be a cluster-fuck either, it would add a layer of risk to gate use that would if the eldar player is being prolific with his gates allow his enemy to turn the tables on him. this is a far better option tactics wise than just making gates more expensive, thus less common. it goes counter to the idea that eldar are fast and can outmaneuver like no other while also making the game-play more boring.
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Nuclear Arbitor
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Re: 2.2 beta

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Wed 14 Aug, 2013 3:25 am

very few people other than the eldar know the paths of the webway.

it would turn into a cluster fuck because gates are limited to 4 squads. i've already had issues with that with allies.

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