Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
KanKrusha
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby KanKrusha » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 6:07 pm

Hi adeptus

Sorry, all the difficulties have the same intelligence. I have tried to have them act at different speeds but i dont think it is noticeable. Expert actually gets double resource!

I am expecting operatives will make an appearance now.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Wed 18 Nov, 2015 6:28 pm

That would explain a lot 8-)
I remember there being a setting that controls aggressiveness. Maybe I was thinking about that.
Either way, what you are saying sounds really good :)
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Batpimp » Fri 20 Nov, 2015 8:07 pm

*tick tock*

waiting for dis patch!
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Barrogh » Sat 21 Nov, 2015 3:42 pm

Visited dawnofwar.info. Saw background changed to something something about death. Got scared shitless and ran here to see if the project was indeed dropped.

Bless you guys that you are still doing it, it seems that we aren't getting any other decent 40k game anytime soon (well, maybe BFG, but yet to see anything).
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Atlas » Mon 23 Nov, 2015 1:02 am

Caeltos wrote:Grey Knights
Globals
* Flamefury Strike has been replaced by "Call-in Paladins" cost is 650/150/350
* Paladin/Terminator Psycanon & Incinerator now have a 0.5 accuracy while firing on the move (from 1)
* Paladins can no longer retreat (However, regular GK Terminators can)
* Paladin rotation speed decreased from 600 to 200


Dunno why there isn't enough #hallelujah on this btw. I thought people would sh*t their pants in joy and wonder at this but huh. Anyway I'll make up for it now.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 24 Nov, 2015 12:00 pm

Well i kind of liked flame strike since i didnt particularly like the gk aoe options (personal taste mostly)
The change you listed that i am most interested in is the rotation speed. I have seen grumblings about how the cl as difficulty finishing retreating heros that move past him on account of his slow rotation speed.

That would put more value in maintaining a chaser unit such as purifiers rather than skipping them for the not much more expensive terminator squad. (aside from the teir up cost that is...)
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Atlas » Fri 27 Nov, 2015 5:06 pm

Am I crazy, or was the Zoanthrope snare supposed to be removed in this patch?

Why not just make the Zoanthrope shield a 75/15 upgrade for the thing? With it being literally the only AV snare in the entire nid roster the Zoan is super critical for a melee centric AV strategy. With all the great bonuses the Zoan offers, it should at least be a little more expensive.

@ GK again

Why is it that the GK terms can retreat, but the 350 red Palas can't? Doesn't it sound like it should be the other way around?
I'm still concerned that Ops are not getting the nerfs they need to not be silly op. Still concerned about GK vs SM and so on and so forth.

@Eldar
Rangers are in need of some kind of buff. It's hard to justify getting a squad of them. Feels like either two squads or nothing, since the suppression effect is kind of all or nothing and you really don't want your Rangers around long enough for 3 volleys on one squad(enough to get a stable suppression effect on a squad). For just detection, you might as well just get DA exarchs.

Also, I'm not really sure what Dark Reapers are supposed to accomplish. What circumstances would prompt an Eldar player to say "I need Reapers now."? TCSM are an inbuilt upgrade to a squad you'll be getting anyway and TCSM are the closest comparison to DRs I have atm. But Reapers have to compete with DAs in the shooty department.

FD/DR/DA buffs make Eldar feel more like a weird shooty race when I thought the big idea was that squads should all be working together with op abilities. When elements of that synergy aren't pulling their own weight (Rangers, Banshees to an extent) then ppl fall back into the shooty trap. Idk, I guess I'm describing more of a feeling now and less of a balance opinion.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 27 Nov, 2015 5:10 pm

Atlas wrote:I'm still concerned that Ops are not getting the nerfs they need to not be silly op.


This is a big concern of mine too. Way too spammable.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby KanKrusha » Sun 29 Nov, 2015 5:54 am

Hi everyone

Here are some "sub patch notes" just for the AI. I have been unable to test these in the Elite mod itself but have tested the AI in retail.

New scripting so that coding for expenditure improved (likely not noticeable to the player)
Resource bonus modifier for Expert AI reduced from 2 to 1.5
Frequency that AI checks for retreat and for new targets to attack increased (individual AI squads will be more responsive)
New retreat modifiers that respond better to be being outnumbered and being in melee
SM Tacs will no longer rapid cycle between plasma and rocket upgrades (this change made them then start to cycle to flamers so that stopped now too!)
Class ratings for multiple units adjusted so AI more likely to build them esp Eldar units
Added to coding so can be built: operatives, chosen plague marines, lootas (Ai tends to spam this last one, we shall have to see how this goes)
Added some script to better limit unit spam
AI should no longer build spore mines
AI should no longer use Malignant blindness.
Sentinel stomp re-enabled (was deliberately disabled before)

For anyone who is interested, in post 9 of this thread I have laid out how I think the AI functions. I may not be 100% correct
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread. ... ing-the-AI
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby PhatE » Sun 29 Nov, 2015 12:57 pm

@kankrusha

Thanks a ton for that update. Whilst I don't play with the AI myself this is surely welcomed by those who do.

Keep up the good work!
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 12:58 pm

Atlas wrote:Am I crazy, or was the Zoanthrope snare supposed to be removed in this patch?

Why not just make the Zoanthrope shield a 75/15 upgrade for the thing? With it being literally the only AV snare in the entire nid roster the Zoan is super critical for a melee centric AV strategy. With all the great bonuses the Zoan offers, it should at least be a little more expensive.


I want the snare. Remove the damage on the ability but for the love of god keep the snare. nids don’t have any longer than normal ranged av and they don’t have any good chasers prior to the buff from a swarm lord. Genestealers are NOT going to be good chasers.

@ GK again

Why is it that the GK terms can retreat, but the 350 red Palas can't? Doesn't it sound like it should be the other way around?
I'm still concerned that Ops are not getting the nerfs they need to not be silly op. Still concerned about GK vs SM and so on and so forth.


Frankly neither of them should get retreat . Not having retreat is the explicit trade off to having an infantry unit that functions as a walking tank.

The ops needed a cost increase.. it is rather puzzling that they didn’t get one...


@Eldar
Rangers are in need of some kind of buff. It's hard to justify getting a squad of them. Feels like either two squads or nothing, since the suppression effect is kind of all or nothing and you really don't want your Rangers around long enough for 3 volleys on one squad(enough to get a stable suppression effect on a squad). For just detection, you might as well just get DA exarchs.

Also, I'm not really sure what Dark Reapers are supposed to accomplish. What circumstances would prompt an Eldar player to say "I need Reapers now."? TCSM are an inbuilt upgrade to a squad you'll be getting anyway and TCSM are the closest comparison to DRs I have atm. But Reapers have to compete with DAs in the shooty department.


The DA leaders suuuuuuuck for detection. the radius is just way too small. Really only useful if your opponent has maybe 1 infiltrated melee / short range ranged unit. Anything more than that and they are next to useless for that role.

You can argue that darkreapers suffer from a similar issue that purifiers/ flash gits suffer... In that there is technically a role there for them to fill... but that role is either not big enough to warrant their cost or they aren’t so good at that role that they would be the preferred choice over some other squad with more utility.

all dark reapers are ... is that damage type and maybe their range. They bring absolutely nothing else to the table. They are not durable. their abilities are not unique , novel or even good and they have the flexibility of burnt plastic.

if you just want a damage source to deal with heavy infantry.. banshees are more cost effective in nearly every situation except ranged dominant 3v3 matches.
If you just want a ranged damage source that can deal with heavy infantry... fire dragons....
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Deflaktor » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 2:11 pm

saltychipmunk wrote:You can argue that darkreapers suffer from a similar issue that purifiers/ flash gits suffer... In that there is technically a role there for them to fill... but that role is either not big enough to warrant their cost or they aren’t so good at that role that they would be the preferred choice over some other squad with more utility.

all dark reapers are ... is that damage type and maybe their range. They bring absolutely nothing else to the table. They are not durable. their abilities are not unique , novel or even good and they have the flexibility of burnt plastic.


If I have dire avengers for shields, a falcon for reinforcing and a d cannon or a fire prism, they will be an awesome choice for spotting.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby sebi.costa » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 8:26 pm

Wouldn't 3v3s be more exciting if there were 5 points of control instead of 3?
That way ppl would be discouraged from camping all the bloody time. Or even remove natural spawn points?
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 30 Nov, 2015 11:03 pm

sebi.costa wrote:Or even remove natural spawn points?
I'm sorry... Whut? °_O
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 12:04 pm

Yeah, um if you are going to drop an idea like that.... I think it is fair if you take the time and go into specifics for why you want it.. (preferably in your own .. new .. thread if you can please).

because wow.. that just kind of came out of no where....
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 5:11 pm

sebi.costa wrote:Wouldn't 3v3s be more exciting if there were 5 points of control instead of 3?
That way ppl would be discouraged from camping all the bloody time. Or even remove natural spawn points?


1 - Eldar would win
2 - Natural spawn points are the only spawn points apart from globals. Unless you want those to move (which would work against the whole anti-camping slant anyways)... I have no idea what you envision with this.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby [EL] The Emperor » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 5:55 pm

sebi.costa wrote:Wouldn't 3v3s be more exciting if there were 5 points of control instead of 3?
That way ppl would be discouraged from camping all the bloody time. Or even remove natural spawn points?


People need to stop trying to change the nature of 3v3s, and looking to turn them into 1v1 style matches. It is kind of annoying to witness such suggestions as the majority of 3v3 players would disagree with you.

Does 3v3 have its flaws of course it does, and camping is a problem with the way turrets, nodes, and beacons are set-up. There are counters but camping is the tradeoff of having a game mode that is really about constant combat.

If I want a game for micro engagements, and ninja capping I will go play a 1v1. If i want a game for synergy with other team members, and nothing but shooting the enemy in the face I will play a 3v3.

Any suggestion to try to expand a 3v3 into an isolated match between players of the same team I would frown upon.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby RosenWarrior » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 6:40 pm

Watup..

Little concerned with the patch notes in that;

It does seem to recognise that FIRE DRAGONS are OP, and that eldar tends to spam them in dire situations (especially when losing/in a stalemate) to turn the tide..

Just wanna know.. Why do they need to be so much faster, resistant to ranged fire and resistant to knockback than any other non-terminator-size unit?

The patch notes seem to address this a litte, but if you think anybody is not gonna exploit them by spamming loads of them for their 'Mess-up-everything' abilities, you're wrong.

Maybe you could even increase the pop they require? Because before those things came onto the map we were'nt getting baselocked/base invaded by these hacks..

Sincerely,
Triple chaos lords.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 7:44 pm

the fire dragons being durable is not an issue. they are a short ranged melta unit that lack a root or disable. they need to be durable and fast or they simply would not do their primary function at all.

The knockback resistance is the main issue here.

And increasing pop requirements is never the answer. It did an ugly job balancing the flash gits, i still dont agree with the fex pop change and it simply wont prevent spam.

if an eldar wants to spam fire dragons. no reasonable increase in pop cap is going to stop said eldar from doing so . It is not like the eldar army is at full pop cap by the time fire dragons can roll out anyway.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby egewithin » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 7:59 pm

Fire Dragon spam is the second hardest spam in this game to deal with, just loosing to Jim Beams general nid play. I have no ideas other than limiting squad produce by 2 but this sounds too brutal. I don'T want to talk about them untill the next patch comes and have some real experiance with them. Btw, when can we have our patch? :D
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Sturnn » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 8:30 pm

firatwithin wrote:Fire Dragon spam is the second hardest spam in this game to deal with, just loosing to Jim Beams general nid play. I have no ideas other than limiting squad produce by 2 but this sounds too brutal. I don'T want to talk about them untill the next patch comes and have some real experiance with them. Btw, when can we have our patch? :D



First of all we need to ask question what purpose Fire Dragons have in Eldar army. Anti All unit? I dont think so. The easiest way to fix them is simply change their dmg output type for the same as Venom Brood - this way they will dmg only vehicles. In DoW 1 FD's worked just that way, dedicated AV infantry. In my opinnion Eldar didnt need another AV but if they have it already, it should fulfill only that role. IMHO ofc.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby egewithin » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 8:52 pm

Sturnn wrote:First of all we need to ask question what purpose Fire Dragons have in Eldar army.


I think they came as a mobile anti tank squad. Because all Eldar AV options were slow and stable. To help with their quick moving army, Fire Dragons were one of the best ideas modders ever had IMO. I like them.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Sturnn » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 8:53 pm

firatwithin wrote:I think they came as a mobile anti tank squad. Because all Eldar AV options were slow and stable. To help with their quick moving army, Fire Dragons were one of the best ideas modders ever had IMO. I like them.


Yep, thats a point. And they should deal AV dmg, not Anti All dmg :)
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Laplace's Demon » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 9:08 pm

Sturnn wrote:
firatwithin wrote:I think they came as a mobile anti tank squad. Because all Eldar AV options were slow and stable. To help with their quick moving army, Fire Dragons were one of the best ideas modders ever had IMO. I like them.


Yep, thats a point. And they should deal AV dmg, not Anti All dmg :)



I am also in favor of changing melta guns into anti-AV only. Down with the tyranny of Anti-all dmg! Anti-all is for noobs.

PS. It would be interesting to see which faction has the most access to Anti-all dmg types. My money is on Chaos.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Cyris » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 9:18 pm

I'm cautiously optimistic the armor type change plus losing the ranged damage resistance and ability_KD is going to be sufficient. It's important to understand exactly what this means, since it looks like such a small bullet point, but it is a really big deal. Lemme break it down as much as I can...

Infantry armor type PLUS -30% ranged damage resistance (current FD):
"Ranged" is code for every single thing in the game that isn't flagged as melee. So this includes artillery, grenades, globals and almost every ability. Since FD's have infantry armor, which takes pretty much 100% damage from all sources, they are now taking 70% from all sources (or ~30% from fire, since they are actually fire_resistant_infantry). This combines to make them arguably the best armor type in the game (especialy considering their small size). Consider that while SHI terminator armor conveys an extraordinary reduction in ranged fire (down to 30%), they take bonus damage from nearly every other source (up to 150%), and are large which makes them vulnerable to many weapons that can't even hit FDs.

Heavy Infantry (patch 2.5 FD):
These guys are nerfed in almost every way imaginable, the exception being resistance to piercing damage has gone from 70% to 67%. The weapons that counter HI are well understood by most players, and will chew through FD. Consider some extream examples of a TCSM squad firing. With a inferno dps of 100 (an approximation for easy math) the old FD were taking 70dps, while the new guys will be recieving 125dps. This is nearly double the dps, which means half the suitability. But it's not just that: Autocannons, grenades, rockets, explosive will all no longer be experiencing the -30% passive reduction, increasing their damage by no small chunk, and increasing it in some cases. And to top it off, HI takes 75% damage from flamers, up from the 50% (-30%) they used to receive. So fire actually counters Firedragons.

And this is all before we discuss the knockback change. Understanding the difference between ability and weapon becomes important, and I only just barely understand it. Basically, FD have gone from immune to everything, to as resistant as Terminators. So melee specials and grenades will not knock them over, but walkers Charge, pdev/blastmasters and Nukes will.

Overall, I feel FD were a unit that recieved badly needed buffs for a few patches in a row, and then went a little too far. These guys do not need to be nerfed into the ground: they have no snare, are short ranged, are a lot more vulnerable to damage now and can be knocked around by some abilities. I also appreciate that they are treated as HI, which means that canny players should think of them as very fragile tactical marines when forming counter strategies. Consider the specific case of a PDev shot hitting a group of FDs. The old ones would take 70% of the shot's damage and not be knocked over. The new ones will take 150% and go flying.

Edit:
Reducing their weapons to AV only (presumebly the anti_vehicle_pvp damage type) in addition to the above changes would make the unit COMPLETELY WORTHLESS. It could happen if none of the armor or resistance changes happened, and honestly they would prolly need buffs too.

Laplace's Demon wrote:PS. It would be interesting to see which faction has the most access to Anti-all dmg types. My money is on Chaos.


My money would be on GK ;) It does depend what you mean by "access" I suppose (unit count? weapon count? dps totals? viability in compositions?) From a gameplay standpoint though, most of my AV comes from anti-all sources, and most compositions end up with a healthy amount of it because of this.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Sturnn » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 9:33 pm

@Cyris,

Maybe I wasnt clear but if we would give them AV dmg type no other changes would be needed I think.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Kvn » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 10:45 pm

RosenWarrior wrote:It does seem to recognise that FIRE DRAGONS are OP, and that eldar tends to spam them in dire situations (especially when losing/in a stalemate) to turn the tide..

Just wanna know.. Why do they need to be so much faster, resistant to ranged fire and resistant to knockback than any other non-terminator-size unit?

The patch notes seem to address this a litte, but if you think anybody is not gonna exploit them by spamming loads of them for their 'Mess-up-everything' abilities, you're wrong.

Maybe you could even increase the pop they require? Because before those things came onto the map we were'nt getting baselocked/base invaded by these hacks..


You seem to be grossly exaggerating their effectiveness. Fire Dragons, on their own, are largely ineffective against most races. Spamming them isn't all that difficult to counter when you get used to them. I've been saying it for a while, but melee wrecks them, especially in large numbers. Despite their inherent suppression resistance, quite a few control abilities still work against them.

As for spam, I think you don't have anything to worry about. Getting their armor changed to Heavy Infantry as opposed to the flat 30% damage resist is a huge nerf. Consider the fact that Dark Reapers, despite having significantly more range, are almost never used. Plasma/Inferno/Psychic/etc. cuts them to shreds, and will do the same to Dragons. FD were never used before their recent buffs because of how quickly they died, and how difficult it was to get them to do anything worthwhile, and while they might not be dropped to that level again in the next patch, they're still probably not going to see play anymore afterwards. Even though the idea behind them is a good one, they don't really work out in the field.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Sturnn » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 10:56 pm

Kvn wrote:I've been saying it for a while, but melee wrecks them, especially in large numbers.


Wonder how you will tie them up with FoF and shooting while moving? I guess thats whole a problem - at this point they are simply hard to be stopped. Too fast, too much resistance etc. And they are vs all. They do multi melta dmg type, it kills everything, especially when massed like 2 and more squads.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Kvn » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 11:29 pm

Sturnn wrote:Wonder how you will tie them up with FoF and shooting while moving? I guess thats whole a problem - at this point they are simply hard to be stopped. Too fast, too much resistance etc. And they are vs all. They do multi melta dmg type, it kills everything, especially when massed like 2 and more squads.


They don't have fleet. Their ability doesn't increase movespeed, instead granting 100% FotM (which actually gives them surprisingly good retreat killing potential, something that I think could be looked at). They have a high base speed, but by the time they get close enough to shoot, they're usually in range of your melee charge, meaning they're not going to be able to escape easily. If they're tied up in melee, they can't shoot the unit chasing them due to their orientation.

Doomblasts and Crippling Poison both still work on Dragons just fine. Haven't tested Banshee Warshout or Aimin' Wotz Dat? yet, but there are other ways to catch them out if those don't slow them.

In the case of spam, the Dragons are usually (in my experience at the very least) thrown around in a large death squad. If you get multiple melee units to counter them, it will become incredibly difficult for the spamming player to keep microing all of his units in such a way that he can keep them from getting mauled. It's important to remember that their damage resist doesn't apply to melee, meaning they melt very quickly even if they can't be specialed onto their backs.

In the case of IG, shooting them down is straightforwards enough just due to how much focusing power you've got. That 30% damage resistance doesn't keep them from getting hit by a wall of lasgun fire.

Their anti-all damage is mostly controlled by their short range and lack of built-in supporting mechanisms. In addition, against dedicated ranged units, their shooting ends up being rather inefficient. Their rec bleed isn't all that serious, but the power cost is.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be nerfed. Their total immunity to knockback has to go, but they're not as scary as a lot of people make them out to be. Seeing them get the beatstick that they look to be getting, which may very well remove them from usefulness altogether, and have people still call them broken gets a bit frustrating. Hopefully I'm wrong, but given that I've seen very little evidence of them being a potent force against an opponent who knows how to counter them currently, it's hard for me to imagine them being useful after the coming patch.
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Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Lichtbringer » Tue 01 Dec, 2015 11:33 pm

Sturnn wrote:
Kvn wrote:I've been saying it for a while, but melee wrecks them, especially in large numbers.


Wonder how you will tie them up with FoF and shooting while moving? I guess thats whole a problem - at this point they are simply hard to be stopped. Too fast, too much resistance etc. And they are vs all. They do multi melta dmg type, it kills everything, especially when massed like 2 and more squads.


Firedragons have no Fleet of Foot, and if a Rhino for example drives into them and you have melee, then the Firedragons won't shoot the Rhino.

Anyway, if any one has replays of Firedragons dominationg please send them my way. In the games I catch everyone is probably to honorable to use them, so I don't see them much. (Somewhat weird though, being "OP" never stopped people abusing other things for easy wins.)

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