Dark Reaper discussion station

[ytimk]

I always thought they were an effective ranged choice but in recent memory I can't recall seeing them fielded in casts or even discussed.

Just want to open this up for people to talk Dark Reapers.

[Max_Damage]

In 3v3

If the opponent goes INF blobs at T2 i buy the spiders.

If Heavy inf, i buy Dark Reapers.

They are sorta extra good with the farseer's Guide. Extreme damage and range.

In 1v1, i cant tell you.

[Deflaktor]

I already made a thread at the strategy subforum as I was not sure whether it is a balance issue or me playing bad.

What heavy inf are there that are actually hard countered by dark reapers? They melt to plasma tacs and inferno csm. The fire dragons seem a lot more sturdier, do better damage and are more versatile (can counter vehicles) in my opinion.
EDIT: They also cost less.

[Batpimp]

I already made a thread at the strategy subforum as I was not sure whether it is a balance issue or me playing bad.

What heavy inf are there that are actually hard countered by dark reapers? They melt to plasma tacs and inferno csm. The fire dragons seem a lot more sturdier, do better damage and are more versatile (can counter vehicles) in my opinion.
EDIT: They also cost less.

if enemy counters by making heavy infantry dmg (plasma tacs, TCSM) that's not that bad. That should play into your favor. They just used power to upgrade units to counter only ONE of your units, because the rest are usually light infantry. While you counter ALL of theirs. I don't get reapers TO COUNTER heavy armor. I get them because in addition to my army it makes them more deadly. They shouldn't be firing and be fired at in return.



Range of Reapers NON BUFFS 44...tacs 38. CSM TCSM 38

reinforce cost of reapers : 50
Tacs: 75
CSM: 67

Force the tacs/csm/termies to fight you at their DISADVANTAGEOUS range. If they jump or move in with melee counters. your hero banshees/walkers counter. For example, jump in a vehicle or structure or elder gate.

regular tacs, rocket tacs, regular CSM, Warriors broods, CSM with sgt but not upgrades, KSCM, ASM, Slight dmg to vehicles. All orks, especially NOBS, GK regular Strike squad. and more like the GUO or Termie variants.

With seer:
You can increase their ranged dmg, debuff enemies (with the doombringer), cast fortune on them, heal them with farseer, suppress enemies with ghosthelm,

With Warlock:
You can heal them, enhance them, Cloaking Shroud them, and warp throw melee or ranged enemies into or out of range.

With WS Exarch:
Crack shot them, grav nade enemies, entangle enemies

[Sub_Zero]

You all forget about their own ability to pin down any squad. That easily makes them superior to tacs/csm.

But honestly their heavy armour and high model count makes them the only heavy armoured squad whose models can be killed quite easily and are VERY vulnerable to any artillery (ever seen what a single shot of plasma devastators does to them?). Plus they don't have melee resistance which also makes them easier to kill with power melee weapons that are prevalent over normal melee weapons. So they are decently balanced I think.

[Deflaktor]

I tried going double dark reapers which does not work at all. Way too fragile and way too huge investment. Sure the damage output is high, but one wrong move and you find yourself in a economically very bad position.

With farseer they can be somewhat competent but I never felt like they were a game deciding factor. I always feel like any other purchase would have done a better job. It is also the only eldar t2 unit without any AV capabilities so it is highly specialized.

Yes, keeping them at a distance and letting them shoot without getting shot at is good. However this requires constant baby sitting. Taking your eyes off them for even one second can result in a few model losses. And by the time t2 hits, armies keep growing so it becomes harder to keep track of all your units.

I'm gonna try a few other build orders, especially ones with shuri involved so I have AV at t2 even with dark reapers. I have the idea of using pinning down + warp spiders = commander killer. Gonna post some more insights then.

Also about that reinforcement cost vs tacs: each dark reaper reinforcement costs also 5 power, and the exarch a whopping 85/25.

[Max_Damage]

they re good especially in 2v2 3v3... but not imba and shouldnt be
they are easy access to large amounts of inferno damage now eldar have it too. much cheaper then CSM
guide is awesome for them.

[Batpimp]

I tried going double dark reapers which does not work at all. Way too fragile and way too huge investment. Sure the damage output is high, but one wrong move and you find yourself in a economically very bad position.

With farseer they can be somewhat competent but I never felt like they were a game deciding factor. I always feel like any other purchase would have done a better job. It is also the only eldar t2 unit without any AV capabilities so it is highly specialized.

Yes, keeping them at a distance and letting them shoot without getting shot at is good. However this requires constant baby sitting. Taking your eyes off them for even one second can result in a few model losses. And by the time t2 hits, armies keep growing so it becomes harder to keep track of all your units.

I'm gonna try a few other build orders, especially ones with shuri involved so I have AV at t2 even with dark reapers. I have the idea of using pinning down + warp spiders = commander killer. Gonna post some more insights then.

Also about that reinforcement cost vs tacs: each dark reaper reinforcement costs also 5 power, and the exarch a whopping 85/25.

2 of them is almost always incorrectly to use.

because they are t2 they are available to you even if the enemy gets outs t3 units. That means in t2 you have an answer to t3 units. even if they get pushed off the field. you have gates, speed, buffs, falcon to get them back in the field again. For the people saying they die fast watch them wreck un prepared tacs in 2 volleys/bursts.

[Corrie]

I think your giving these guys way more credit than its due, they do some nice damage if their allowed to fire without being focused or losing models but in reality they are focused and they bleed far to easy which makes their dps drop to a point where its not even doing that much to HI,

Main issue is say your against a SM and normally he will go for a razorback so you go warp spiders and brightlance which is all good, then your next purchase is Dark reapers, so this meaning say you went for a 2 DA build you will have 2 DA warp spiders and dark reapers bleeding you.

I just don't see a situation where they fit into a composition very well even vs a tac heavy build I would rather just get suppression.

[Caeltos]

Falcon + Dark Reapers =

[Deflaktor]

Gonna try that out with falcons but I fear it will bleed too much.

Had a game yesterday where they actually did something. Forced two unupgraded tac squads to retreat by almost wiping them. It was a winning game though. Tempest barrage is also quite strange. Even at nearest range it doesnt seem to do much.

In a competitive game I never purchase them. The cost is just too high. A fully upgraded squad costs 80 power and puts me so much behind in the tech race.

What I found out is, that you have to keep them behind your army and only in a defensive position. They must be ALWAYS behind cover. Never play aggressively with them. Do not even try to chase that one squad which is out in the open. Protect them like a fragile egg. And then they might actually pay off.

[Dalakh]

Listen in all reality the only time you ever really want dark reapers over say warp spiders, fire dragons or wraith guard is against a massive terminator threat, and even then you could argue that fire dragons are still better. Then you need a support unit to babysit them at ALL TIME (falcon, banshees, council, wraithlord, kited out hero etc, and to use DA shields at ALL TIMES).

To sum it up to need to babysit THE FUCK out of them for a very mediocre return all things considered annd even then you will probalby lose them to some plasma/nade/anti HI AoE.

[Superhooper01]

I think they are pretty neat atm. They do keep getting changes but i do feel the tempest launcher is a bit inaccurate and not really doing much in the terms of damage i just use it against blobs and set up teams if it hits:p

[Atlas]

Agreed on the Tempest Launcher being a bit weird.

It's really strange to say it but Fire Dragons might be more legit than Dark Reapers now. If I was using Falcon tactics, I would put FDs or WG into that doom bus instead of DRs.

[Tex]

Yeh... DR's do their job certainly, but wraithguard do it better, and at less cost, and with greater utility, so...

[Dalakh]

Major dark reaper problems :

-only 175 HI hp, as riku is fond of saying HI on low health models is horrible, you die much harder to all the nasty nade, plasma, psychic and power melee damage that hits the field in T2. Plus contrary to SM or WG they have 5 models which makes them again exponentially vulnerable to AoE.

-no escape mechanism : that's not something that should be changed, no one expects dark reapers to fly like the wind but it's something that makes them retreat all the time at the slightest shadow of a threat.

The combination of those two things make reapers the most fragile eldar unit. DA have shields, rangers infiltration, FD range resist, WS have teleport, WG are low model high hp, most have fleet. Dark reapers have nothing at all, one jump squad : you lose at least two models even with support available, one artillery shot/smite you almost lose the squad.

Then dark reapers cost 550/80, for this cost anyone in the right mind would rather get WG or FD or a falcon or WS.

That's the major problems.

Then you have the rest that is secondary :

-pinning fire takes waaaay too long to suppress. On a squad that dies in the blink of an eye you need this thing to take effect instantly.
-the barrage is affected by suppression which is exactly the only thing it really should counter. As every one said it's pretty weak and unreliable.
I feel they are a lot more glass than cannon atm.

[Max_Damage]

Noone is forcing you to fully upgrade the Dark Reapers..

[Dark Riku]

-only 175 HI hp, as riku is fond of saying HI on low health models is horrible, you die much harder to all the nasty nade, plasma, psychic and power melee damage that hits the field in T2. Plus contrary to SM or WG they have 5 models which makes them again exponentially vulnerable to AoE.

Don't take it out of context.
As SM's the majority of your units are HI. As Eldar the majority of your units are normal infantry.
It makes little sense for the enemy to get a lot of plasma and the likes versus an Eldar player.

[Dalakh]

@Max
Indeed, and no one and nothing is forcing me to purshase even the squad itself at all which is precisely the problem.

@Riku
Merely joking about your devastator posts there. But seriously, plasma rifles are not the real deal when I say plasma I mean plasma cannons, zoanthropes and artillery in general, nades => AoE.

[Lichtbringer]

I would now always get Firedragons over Darkreapers. Not being knockedback, double as resistant to Supression, ranged damage resistant aura that is basically HI but without all the negatives, it even works against plasma. 1,5 speed faster retreat kill potential with full accuracy on the move during the ability and even more dps. I don't have to upgrade them to get the ability. The potential against Vehicles and Terminators. And they are even a bit cheaper.

Firedragons get jumped by ASM? I run them away laughing, then turn and shoot them. Darkreapers get jumped? I lose 2 Models and have to instant retreat.

The only advantage I see in DR is that they have pinning fire (you have a shuriken anyway, banshee cry for melee, and firedragons force an enemy jump unit off as fast), and more Range. The range you get barely to use, shooting an enemy without him shooting back has never worked for me (+enemy T2 plasma artillery), and most of the time they are shooting something that comes to you.
If you really want them for Ranged, I would get WraithGuard or a Falcon, maybe even Warpspiders. Or maybe an Autarch to jump in with banshees.

Also, I don't like how their gameplay works out, in a Lore aspect. Not that thats anything to go off, but it makes me less likely to use them. It just doesn't feel like I am fielding something mighty.

[Max_Damage]

But you also could buy like 2x rangers and then Dark Reapers in T2 and use guide on those. Guide makes that 44 range like what.. 58? bretty good. Been doing this lately, it solves some problems for me. Shooty SM armies will have some trouble with it especially in 2v2/3v3. All your units shoot farther then the opponent's And with a very large damage as well. What do you want from the Dark Reapers? They do the same DPS of CSM but at a longer range and with abilities. At the cost of lower hp.

[Sub_Zero]

I would now always get Firedragons over Darkreapers. Not being knockedback, double as resistant to Supression, ranged damage resistant aura that is basically HI but without all the negatives, it even works against plasma. 1,5 speed faster retreat kill potential with full accuracy on the move during the ability and even more dps. I don't have to upgrade them to get the ability. The potential against Vehicles and Terminators. And they are even a bit cheaper.

Who was the genius to give them that 30% constant ranged damage resistance? It is just so wrong! HI armor is actually not such a good armor. Grenades, artillery, prevalent amount of melee units, specialized ranged damage types counter it so hard. HI is only good for T1 when there is a lot of piercing damage. Poor dark reapers, they are like the only HI unit that suffers from these sources the most SINCE they have a lot of models and little health for each model AND no melee resistance for them. I am shocked that these cheap ass dragons are that good...

[Deflaktor]

Somewhat agree on that. IMO Fire Dragons are too good, while Dark Reapers a little lackluster.

Also seeing double Fire Dragons tactics more often lately.

[SinisterLaugh]

Just a suggestion - how about increasing Dark Reapers weapons range and move them to tier 3? Or maybe just add an upgrade on tier 3 to increase their range (or even damage) to 50 or smth, making them a kind of shooty Flash Gits for eldar? This will definitely improve their role in eldar roster, although I`m well aware that eldars don`t need another ranged T3 unit.)

[egewithin]

I had 2 DR. My eyes were open and Assault Termies were 100% health. Closed then opened my eyes, it was 75%. They are like Mark of Tzeentch CSM for Eldar. And I like them as long as they are not in melee.

Also, Tempest Barrage has no real use for us. You know, I get Assault Cannon Dread for its barrage, TzeentchDread for its barrage but I don't really need DR barrage. Maybe a whole new work for them? So we can get barrage for a real reason.

[Corrie]

Just a suggestion - how about increasing Dark Reapers weapons range and move them to tier 3? Or maybe just add an upgrade on tier 3 to increase their range (or even damage) to 50 or smth, making them a kind of shooty Flash Gits for eldar? This will definitely improve their role in eldar roster, although I`m well aware that eldars don`t need another ranged T3 unit.)

Quite like this idea

[Deflaktor]

Or maybe just add an upgrade on tier 3 to increase their range (or even damage) to 50 or smth, making them a kind of shooty Flash Gits for eldar?

Aspect of Reaper already increases their range to 48.

EDIT: I would propose for now to reduce their model count by one and increase the hp of the exarch by 50. Right now they are too easily wiped by a plasma dev shot (dealing 315 dmg in sweetspot vs 175hp and exarch having 300hp). Having a model count of 3 would mean around 235 hp each. This way they would survive a plasma dev shot within 2 meters distance (~190 dmg) and thus preventing instant wipe.

[Caeltos]

Aspect of the Reaper doesn't increase weapon range

[Deflaktor]

Oh yeah I misread the codex. "maximum ranged damage of the squad by 10%" for some reason I skipped the word damage when reading that.

[Lichtbringer]

I tested them out again, and with the Farseer I can see some uses for them maybe.
What they do:

-Their DPS is pretty good, even against non HI.
Without an Exarch, but the Aspect Warpspiders do 18,26 dps against LI, Darkreapers do 16 dps against LI, and 19,25 with pinningfire (which lasts 12 seconds, so pretty good).
Now I know you can't compare Warpspiders and Darkreapers, because Warpspiders have the amazing teleport AND Haywiregreande and Darkreapers do huge damage to HI and SHI.
But many people think the Warpspider dps is really good. So Darkreapers do almost as much damage against LI and more against HI and SHI.
The damage is not the Problem.

-They give Supression: Thats pretty good, but Banshees also do that, plus you have supression teams.

-They have higher range. But not much, only 44 compared to the standard 38. With their slow movement and no fire on the move you can't really capitalize on that. They don't even have the sight to exploit the range. (Thats why they are somewhat nice with the Farseer). It never feels like they have superior range. They stand maybe one step back behind your other units, thats it. (which is something, but really not that usefull).

Now their biggest Problem: The Exarch is useless. He is expensive and has the same dps his squad has. Also, he likes to die first. The tempest barrage is not only pretty useless in and of itself, it also competes with Pinningfire. You can't use both. With ability knockback we would be talking, but with weapon knockback that has friendlyfire... Also, the squad stops shooting during the ability I think (you can order them to shoot again after a bit when the Exarch has begun his animation, but still thats another thing to micro).


Other Problems: They are slow and fragile despite or even because of their HI. Their HI mostly only helps against targets that are themselfes LI and therefore don't get that much damage from Darkreapers themselfes.

Now the slowness isn't that bad if you support them. But If they get jumped, they loose 2-3 models even if my banshees are directly there to supress the jumptroops. Only way to avoid that is retreat. And then they are just useless. When my Firedragons get jumped, they don't fall over and are fast to run away. So yeah, you probably need a Falcon for them.

-No AV.


So, if you have a Falcon, something to spot for them, and you don't buy the Exarch and just use them as a cheap ranged squad with high firepower I guess they are Ok... +you need something else for AV.


I will say I had some success with the Farseer with them, with Farsight (or just the passive 45 sight) and guide, they can really surprise an enemy squad. The enemy doesn't even know you are there and suddenly his squad is dead. On the other hand, Guide is great for everything, it allows Wraithguard to have normal range and take the antiranged role. Not to mention their potential against vehicles with guide. Guide is just a great ability to surprise your enemy.

In the ranged Role, they have problems with Artillery (they have to stand still + HI and low models =bad day against plasma), and they still lose to Tzeentch Marines (its close.) or other T2 stuff. They are not the end all win every ranged firefight unit more middling. With Energyshields they are OK, but still at that point energy shields melt.



So yeah, I don't know. I can see how they might get too strong when you buff them, but right now they are a niche unit at best, and outclassed by Firedragons at worst.

What we definitly can change, is the Exarch/the Tempest baragge. Maybe make it effective against vehicles? Maybe give it ability knockback so that they really shine against Terminators. Maybe just increase its range or damage. Maybe make it longer so that it knockbacks some models a second time?
Make the Exarch cheaper or give him more flat DPS. Make it so that he gives something that makes them more tanky.

If we are looking for general buffs, or things tied to the Exarch, why not give them the benefits of Slow and Purposefull in addition the the negatives they already have? Namely, Firing on the move.

Another Idea would to be make them scale better. As we already found out, to use this guys you need atleast a Falcon + someother AV T2. That means when I think about getting them I am almost T3 already and could get something from there.
I would love buffs to their tankiness, but would also be Ok if they got more Range in T3 (which would make them more survivable), or AV options.

TL;DR The Exarch and his ability sucks, in general they are niche and need to many other T2 pruchases first. There dps is quite good, so I will test them more without an Exarch as cheap firepower.