BaneBlade underperforming

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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[EL] The Emperor
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby [EL] The Emperor » Tue 18 Aug, 2015 2:01 am

Here is my opinion:

No the Baneblade is not as wonderful as everyone makes it out to be, and though on paper it looks good in practice it can be the opposite.
It is my point of view that the original poster is not talking about the Baneblade in regards to any other meta except for 3 versus 3 where it is lackluster in comparison to other faction super units.

The reason for that opinion is that the mass of spam that one must face in a 3 versus 3 around tier 3, can be quite daunting. Other super units are not only cheaper but they are also way more manageable in terms of their maneuverability. So no when everyone is spamming nukes on your very expensive Baneblade, and the thing is glitching out because of other units, and its shit path finding yes I do believe something is wrong with it in regards to its usability not its statistics, or firepower.

Now do you want to know what I really THINK? I think this is becoming extremely biased towards people, and its almost cruel the way you are treating others simply because you feel they do not have as much of a insight as all of you.

I have nothing against this modification, or its creator so lets please take that off the table I thoroughly respect Caetlos for what he has created.

What I do have a problem with is the blatant trolling, and bias that almost seems to be encouraged here in this thread. Just because you are extremely skilled individuals within a game, does not mean that you are the lords over what everyone else thinks PERIOD.

I believe that this topic is getting skewed, and trolls are being allowed the option of mercilessly punish the original poster plus anyone who supports him which is plain wrong nor fair. So I motion that this thread is locked, and everyone simply takes a break for now.
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Bahamut
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby Bahamut » Tue 18 Aug, 2015 3:30 am

when caeltos lowered upkeep from GM squads was to actually allow IG to have some req throughout the match.. I'm basing my point on very real experiences.. the BB is waaay more uncommon than any other super unit, and there's a reason for it. If you watch indrid's channel you'll notice that pretty much every replay has a land raider on it. but barely any IG replay has a BB, why?

You might think GM upkeep plays a major role into IG being so req efficient, but reality tells you the BB is still way harder to get in the field than any other superunit, and unlike before it's not superior to any other superunit, which is my actual point. BB doesnt perform that good to have that pricetag, so IMO either needs to perform better to meet the pricetag, or needs to have a cost reduction to match its performance (which IMO is the best choice)

Just to exemplify my point, recently there was a indrid cast with ser topi getting a BB where all he had was 2 GM squads, 1 HWT and a manticore and was barely capable of getting a couple of bunkers and a heavy turret, where one of the chaos players was able to instantly replace a LRP after losing it and half its army to a well placed nuke plus the BB. Yes the BB performed quite good, which i don't deny, but the eco pressure of the BB was just too big.
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SinisterLaugh
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby SinisterLaugh » Tue 18 Aug, 2015 8:18 am

Bahamut wrote:
If you watch indrid's channel you'll notice that pretty much every replay has a land raider on it. but barely any IG replay has a BB, why?


Because their roles are different? No?)

Bahamut wrote:
Just to exemplify my point, recently there was a indrid cast with ser topi getting a BB where all he had was 2 GM squads, 1 HWT and a manticore and was barely capable of getting a couple of bunkers and a heavy turret, where one of the chaos players was able to instantly replace a LRP after losing it and half its army to a well placed nuke plus the BB. Yes the BB performed quite good, which i don't deny, but the eco pressure of the BB was just too big.

Balance is all about 1v1, not team games. Sadly.

[EL] The Emperor wrote:Now do you want to know what I really THINK? I think this is becoming extremely biased towards people, and its almost cruel the way you are treating others simply because you feel they do not have as much of a insight as all of you.

I have nothing against this modification, or its creator so lets please take that off the table I thoroughly respect Caetlos for what he has created.

What I do have a problem with is the blatant trolling, and bias that almost seems to be encouraged here in this thread. Just because you are extremely skilled individuals within a game, does not mean that you are the lords over what everyone else thinks PERIOD.

I believe that this topic is getting skewed, and trolls are being allowed the option of mercilessly punish the original poster plus anyone who supports him which is plain wrong nor fair. So I motion that this thread is locked, and everyone simply takes a break for now.


Uhm... I just review this thread and to my mind there was nothing insulting, cruel, etc. Few fun posts (like with flying baneblade) are just fun, I don`t see how they insulting anyone.
Or you were referring not to this thread, but to the forums in general? :D In that case, I agree with you :D

About opinions of extremely skilled individuals - well it is a "balance discussion" isn`t it? Isn`t it wise to listen to experienced players, because they simply know what they are talking about (and joking about).
When life gives you Lemans...
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Dark Riku
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 18 Aug, 2015 10:23 am

+1 to what Codex said, he keeps his head way cooler than I ever could when faced with these kinds of posts and I rather not make things worse :)


Bahamut wrote:when caeltos lowered upkeep from GM squads was to actually allow IG to have some req throughout the match.. I'm basing my point on very real experiences.. the BB is waaay more uncommon than any other super unit, and there's a reason for it. If you watch indrid's channel you'll notice that pretty much every replay has a land raider on it. but barely any IG replay has a BB, why?
Because those replays are cherry picked. I do not share the same experience as you that BB's are more uncommon in 3v3's. They appear just as often.
Bahamut wrote:You might think GM upkeep plays a major role into IG being so req efficient, but reality tells you the BB is still way harder to get in the field than any other superunit, and unlike before it's not superior to any other superunit, which is my actual point. BB doesnt perform that good to have that pricetag, so IMO either needs to perform better to meet the pricetag, or needs to have a cost reduction to match its performance (which IMO is the best choice)
Not better than any other super unit? What is your definition of a super unit? The BB does not out shoot ranged terminators? It does not out shoot a LRR? etc?
Bahamut wrote:Just to exemplify my point, recently there was a indrid cast with ser topi getting a BB where all he had was 2 GM squads, 1 HWT and a manticore and was barely capable of getting a couple of bunkers and a heavy turret, where one of the chaos players was able to instantly replace a LRP after losing it and half its army to a well placed nuke plus the BB. Yes the BB performed quite good, which i don't deny, but the eco pressure of the BB was just too big.
Map control and unit preservation / bleed control has something to do with this rather than some balance issue.
Bahamut
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby Bahamut » Tue 18 Aug, 2015 2:25 pm

By "better" i'm NOT referring to it's ability to 1v1 other superunits.. I am referring to the impact the BB has in the match compared to the other superunits.. it is the same impact. there's a giant tank in the field now that hits hard and tanks alot.. which is the BB's job
woolypeanut
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby woolypeanut » Sat 22 Aug, 2015 1:50 pm

Baneblade honestly seems fine. Biggest issue is how long it takes to get out which could be eased off a little, you already pay more for it than other super units, why the longer build time?
The main thing to consider, is that if you're relying on chimera infinite guard reinforcement during battles (get my meaning?) you're going to be hard pressed to get the rec you need for the baneblade. Even guard with their low bleed have trouble getting that 1000 rec when you're keeping guardsmen up.

I'm not saying it needs any changes, it's already a huge micro sink because of its immense size and pathing, however the high build time is a bit unnecessary. I find it's always better to just get a Russ (even if I'm pretty far ahead) than wait for the BB because it just takes so long to get out.
If I still have shitloads of resources, I go for a second Russ or Kasikirn but very rarely a BB.

Being 200-300 rec more than other super units it's more of a 'seal the win' rather than a unit you're going to use in a close game.
enasni127
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby enasni127 » Mon 24 Aug, 2015 10:10 am

woolypeanut wrote:
it's already a huge micro sink because of its immense size and pathing, however the high build time is a bit unnecessary.

Being 200-300 rec more than other super units it's more of a 'seal the win' rather than a unit you're going to use in a close game.


THAT!

edit: corrected
Last edited by enasni127 on Mon 24 Aug, 2015 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hiveminion
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby hiveminion » Mon 24 Aug, 2015 10:28 am

enasni127 wrote:THAT! with the addition that the baneblade is the only super unit in this game which has a vulnerable rear armor


Battlewagon.

The fact they have rear armour is balanced by the fact they engage the enemy at range.
enasni127
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby enasni127 » Mon 24 Aug, 2015 3:33 pm

hiveminion wrote:
enasni127 wrote:THAT! with the addition that the baneblade is the only super unit in this game which has a vulnerable rear armor


Battlewagon.

The fact they have rear armour is balanced by the fact they engage the enemy at range.


totally forgot about the BW, which is far quicker and easier to maneuver though. thank you, i will correct that ;)
Foma
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Re: BaneBlade underperforming

Postby Foma » Tue 25 Aug, 2015 7:05 pm

enasni127 wrote:
hiveminion wrote:
enasni127 wrote:THAT! with the addition that the baneblade is the only super unit in this game which has a vulnerable rear armor


Battlewagon.

The fact they have rear armour is balanced by the fact they engage the enemy at range.


totally forgot about the BW, which is far quicker and easier to maneuver though. thank you, i will correct that ;)


and that the BW doesnt turn around without orders, exposing the rear by itself, has no minimum range, but hey, it is all balanced according to some. It is Big, so it must be op.

lets just forget that the slow firing gun has dps of ork tank, while the lascannons have standard 44 tank range, only when all 3 fire at a vehicle, dps gets to lascannon predator. Pointing all 3 is not as easy, as large minimum range requires keeping targets at range, on the whole the tank has quite a short sight as well. So youre paying much for something that requires constant micro due to self-turning.(not that it helps much) Minimum range coupled with self-turning makes the whole vehicle a micro-nightmare. the best thing is generally get some unit behind it, it will turn around to attack, then get a rear free kill/loss. Pathing and general unit behavior ensures usefulness of that thing.

Still, big + ig=op. Lookslike some complex from base retri. IG phobia :D

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