Any opinions on Kasrkins?

[ytimk]

I loved the notion of these versatile, elite ranged troops, and am very greatful they were introduced with the mod, but they seem (to me from watching casts) to not be very popular, and over shadowed by other IG T3 options (TANKS). Alongside the issue of 'why bother if you already have IG Stormtroopers (or even guardsmen)?'. Weapon varieties, tier access? Where do people see the role of Kasrkin?

What about that sarge upgrade cost (80 req/15 power)/benefit (300 health model, +100 courage, +50%faster capping)?

Vs Storms based on current Codex stats (forgive me if this is apples and oranges):

Same:
Population (default); target size (small); armour type (infantry); Melee skill; melee charge stats hehe; default (no sarge) troop melee damage; speed (hmm); rotation; default fire on the move accuracy (hmm).

Req
Karskin: 425
Storms: 400

Power
Karskin:60
Storms: 0

Reinforce:
Karskin: 43 req, 6 power
Storms: 40 req

Upkeep
Karskin: 6.16
Storms: 6.16002

Range (default hellguns)
Karskin: 45
Storms: 38 (2.3.1 data?)

Damage (default hellguns no sarge)
Karskin: 22
Storms: 30 (2.3.1 data)

Per model health lvl1
Karskin: 275
Storms: 180

Base courage
Karskin: 150
Storms: 100

Sight range
Karskin: 40(5)
Storms: 50(5) ?

[ChrisNihilus]

We already discuss them a lot in the past, but i'm going to repeat myself.

Grenatiers are fine, it's the Assault Kit from the StormTroopers that is redundant.
It's should be replaced with the Volley Gun, with a short range template similar to Noise Marines, piercing damage and suppressing, so they can become a sabotage type of unit, infiltrating and taking out of the action with suppression important units before engagement, or hunting reinforcement and lonely units.

Like they should be in the whole concept of StormTroopers.

[Swift]

Kasrkin are fine, they're just not purchased because when you can get tanks, you get tanks.

[egewithin]

24 Guardsmen with Plasma Guns are enoguh anti-infantry and melta troopers / lascannon HWT are real good anti-vehicle. If you don't have one of those, Karskins are a real good option.

[saltychipmunk]

They are kinda shit , in every way imaginable they fall well under expectations.

1 they are extremely squishy , this much would be fine for a standard infantry unit . but they are in tier 3 but ig already has an entire army composition of squishy ranged units .

2 with exception of the grenade launcher cheesy knockback .. their weapon upgrades are abysmal. their plasma guns are only on two models and barely do more damage than a single upgraded guardsmen squad . Their melta guns are ok , but they wont hold a candle to the storm troopers for two mind numbingly obvious reasons: no snare , no infiltrate. kasrkins with meltas is like using shotgun scouts vs a shootaboy squad . you are just going to make the ork laugh at you.

3 to me their squad leader is a shameless method of padding their pop cost as the utility he provides is often quite dubious .. this is the same race with sentinels after-all.

4their grenades are garbage i am postive that wimpy thing the inquisitorial storm troopers get to throw at people has more impact than the kasrkin nades ....at least it doesn't have a timer.


5their base damage type for their cost is a joke . pierce in t3 with no other strong points , no hp , no super heavy infantry , no cover breaking , no suppression immunity . no plasma damage . I hate dark reapers . but dammit give me darkreapers over kasrkins . this is also why i hate flash gits too. in the end they are the kind of unit in which you buy. then buy an upgrade for to make work. but more than half the upgrades are not worth the asking price.


6 the largest and most shameful issue is they are unnecessary. they do nothing special and the things they do do they do only marginally better than other units if they are so lucky. if i want av , i get melta troopers , superior results . if i want AHI i usually have 2 or 3 plasma guardsmen and by tier 3 that is probably around 100 plasma dps already.


It is not just that the leman russ is a defacto buy for IG players.. i personally don't like vehicles in general and try to hold off spamming lemanruss tanks (preference). Kasrkins really are just .. just awful .

[Caeltos]

Guardsmen with plasma guns have a total of 24,72 plasma damage.

Kaskrins with plasma guns have a total of 32,94 plasma damage

Kaskrins have double the regeneration value of the default 0.5 hp/s standard.

Kaskrins have 150 courage (which effectively means +50% more courage then regular troops) which results in them being alot more potent against supression type damage sources. This can be improved furthermore by the sergeant, granting them +100 more courage. For an example. 200 courage means that they can almost go toe-to-toe with supression team at max range, and fully ignore the supression effect completely.

Kaskrins have a total of 64,7 dps out of the gate (Can be improved up to 81,03 w+sergeant), with 45 range + 2 Grenade options (Frag & Krak). For comparison sake.

Stormtrooper have a total of 60 dps out of the gate, with 38 range + Invisibility (Grenades require seperate upgrade) and turns them into specialists.

The weapon stats of the Stormtrooper & Kaskrins are different in the sense, that Stormtrooper deliever a large chunk of burst damage. Meaning there are intervals between the damage spunges. Whereas Kaskrins are more opted for consistent and raw damage output over longer periods of time, if they are left unchecked.

Calling Kaskrins awful/useless is an overexagurration based on their cost effiency performance, espicially when you compare them to the other units within the roster, if anything - they have a remarkably and cheap cost for their effiency out of the gate, and needless to say - flexibility.

[terpterp]

Kasrkins are good. They're underused. I typically get them if the enemy has an abundance of AV or I only have one IG squad for whatever reason. Grenade launcher kasrkins are my favorite, the constant source of knockback can easily remove an enemy unit from the fight. Kasrkins are a more versatile choice imo.

[egewithin]

Sometimes I wonder am I the only IG player who uses them. I mean no one goes double Orgryn but me, no one goes 2 Karskin but me. +1 all Caeltos said. Insted of going double Storm Trooper, 2 Karskin is more reasonable in T3. I mean if enemy has every good anti-vehicle, why would I but a Leman Russ? Of cource a fast double ST in early T2 is priceless.

[Swift]

Sometimes I wonder am I the only IG player who uses them. I mean no one goes double Orgryn but me, no one goes 2 Karskin but me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX_lbbvaZfo&t=32m34s

[Toilailee]

Sometimes I wonder am I the only IG player who uses them. I mean no one goes double Orgryn but me, no one goes 2 Karskin but me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX_lbbvaZfo&t=32m34s

Spammer noobs!!

[Dark Riku]

Exaggerating statements again I see ...

[saltychipmunk]

Guardsmen with plasma guns have a total of 24,72 plasma damage.

Kaskrins with plasma guns have a total of 32,94 plasma damage

Kaskrins have double the regeneration value of the default 0.5 hp/s standard.

Kaskrins have 150 courage (which effectively means +50% more courage then regular troops) which results in them being alot more potent against supression type damage sources. This can be improved furthermore by the sergeant, granting them +100 more courage. For an example. 200 courage means that they can almost go toe-to-toe with supression team at max range, and fully ignore the supression effect completely.

Kaskrins have a total of 64,7 dps out of the gate (Can be improved up to 81,03 w+sergeant), with 45 range + 2 Grenade options (Frag & Krak). For comparison sake.

Stormtrooper have a total of 60 dps out of the gate, with 38 range + Invisibility (Grenades require seperate upgrade) and turns them into specialists.

The weapon stats of the Stormtrooper & Kaskrins are different in the sense, that Stormtrooper deliever a large chunk of burst damage. Meaning there are intervals between the damage spunges. Whereas Kaskrins are more opted for consistent and raw damage output over longer periods of time, if they are left unchecked.

Calling Kaskrins awful/useless is an overexagurration based on their cost effiency performance, espicially when you compare them to the other units within the roster, if anything - they have a remarkably and cheap cost for their effiency out of the gate, and needless to say - flexibility.

guardsmen are also a t1 unit which can gain several levels of exp by t3 when kasrkins hit the field which pretty much narrows the gap in plasma damage to negligible in all but very very long games where t3 becomes a slog fest , not saying that event does not happen but it is also not common.

suppression in t3 usually takes a back seat to out right killing units instantly in t3 with artillery spam leveled ranged spam and nukes. Not saying high courage is a bad thing . but saying it is an amazing selling points is very much an over sale.

64 pierce dps.. is rather underwhelming in t3 , that would not be true if this was a t2 unit with no power cost or a very chunky t3 unit, but they are a squishy tier 3 unit with a heavy power cost. and both grenades in my experience are very underwhelming . the av nade is decent against very light vehicles , but a snare melta it is not and given the kasrkins lack of stealth means it is a much harder explosive to pull off. the frag is just so bad. so bad that i think there might actually be something wrong (as in maybe bugged) with them.

storm troopers beat kasrkins not in stats , but in use and cost. the abilities storms get with meltas make them much better for anti vehicle roles , and the complete lack of a power cost on them (when purchased) makes them a much more economically liberating option. I dont have much of a comment on their assault kit since frankly i usually keep them without an upgrade until a tank shows up.

like i said in the last post , they are unnecessary. that doesn't mean they are worthless. I also tend to think flash gits are unnecessary . but that also doesn't mean they are worthless. So ill say it again. they dont do anything special with exception to the grenade launchers. they have better stats (but not way better stats) than troopers and are are a little more durable . something i would expect as a given for a unit a full tier later in the game with a larger power cost.

If i got hit with a nuke and i lost all my guardsmen and have no plans to get tanks then yeah why not get kasrkins at that point i suppose it makes sense.

But they are by no means a unit i would rush to get ever, i would never go to tier 3 to get kasrkins like i would a leman russ tank or the commisar cheesy death arty ability. they simply are not powerful/special enough to warrant that.

[Foma]

when looking at stats, they are underwhelming except for hp amount/suppression resist.
Strormtroopers 38r/12 model dps=60 dps/38 range.
assault kit range 38*1,2=45,6 range, 75 dps due to cooldown absence.

their plasmas are still 38 in range, default weapons have longer range (45), ... melta guns are also awesome with 24 range.(ST 20 range)

if you want plasma firepower without excessive power costs,(kasrkins) guardsmen can do just fine. If you can manage to keep guardsmen alive, you can have 24,72 plasma in 6 pop (but otherwise crap squad, 17 reinforce)

In Kasrkin + sergeant you can manage to have 32.94 plasma dps while with guardsmen 74,16 plasma dps in 18 pop (Guardsmen are paper and regular 4,11 piercing dps, sergeant 3 dps is just ... a price for cheap reinforce if upgraded, while comissar is actually good) 900 R and 75 P + T2, compared to a different unit filling different roles except for the knockbacker GL. Not that keeping guardsmen alive without those is easy.

[Swift]

But when you consider that Seer Council almost have the same ranged DPS as Kasrkin, does that not throw the argument off a bit? Now Kasrkin seem really underwhelming. Instead, try them in game, and theorycraft once you've given your full undivided attention to them.

[egewithin]

But when you consider that Seer Council almost have the same ranged DPS as Kasrkin, does that...

I noticed it waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before in Retrubition while power bashing, but didn't cared about it.

Karskins... with power melee... and leap into combat? But they are Karskins! and sweat 40 dps pure power meleeeeee.. Hmmm, I think I found a boner for IG players now.

[Foma]

aside from the kb grenade launcher, they have nothing that others dont for less. Others with similar capabilities dont cost power to reinforce either. Not that most of the time by T3, using power for something more cost effective makes sense, or a tank. Increased survivability isnt bad, but for the added cost on top of tiering ... I think they are quite redundant. Since plasma on guardsmen and on them has the same range, I dont find them useful with this upgrade. 2 meltas with better than shocktrooper range but a lot less melta damage, makes them quite anti-everything (and anti-nothing), while when you give attack order they have problems firing both guns, because they stop a bit too soon, so additional micro requirement. That is, unless they run in the opposite direction than ordered.

As a ranged unit, if it cant gun down the melee unit, regardless of hp, it isnt going to do much, is it?

Something like flash gitz, a t3 unit does about 97 (if I remember correctly) dps. kommandos 87, shootas with Nob 77 last time I checked. Theyre different and all...

[Sub_Zero]

They are really underwhelming now. They were crazy nuts. Now the opposite. Gotta find that golden middle.

[Bahamut]

I agree the only upgrade they got that seems worth getting is nade launchers.. 24 plasma dps against 32 is a nobrainer for GM squad.. way cheaper and cost-effective and if you are LC you get even better ROI with the GM squad because of inspiration

[saltychipmunk]

aside from the kb grenade launcher, they have nothing that others dont for less. Others with similar capabilities dont cost power to reinforce either. Not that most of the time by T3, using power for something more cost effective makes sense, or a tank. Increased survivability isnt bad, but for the added cost on top of tiering ... I think they are quite redundant. Since plasma on guardsmen and on them has the same range, I dont find them useful with this upgrade. 2 meltas with better than shocktrooper range but a lot less melta damage, makes them quite anti-everything (and anti-nothing), while when you give attack order they have problems firing both guns, because they stop a bit too soon, so additional micro requirement. That is, unless they run in the opposite direction than ordered.

As a ranged unit, if it cant gun down the melee unit, regardless of hp, it isnt going to do much, is it?

Something like flash gitz, a t3 unit does about 97 (if I remember correctly) dps. kommandos 87, shootas with Nob 77 last time I checked. Theyre different and all...

one can argue that flash gits are in the same boat though. prior to upgrades they do almost nothing special too. they have slightly better range (over shootas and kommandos) they have better base hit points and fewer models . but that is thrown away by the heavy infantry armor since t3 is plasma hell. Shootas are cheaper , come in t1 and have a whole game to gain several levels , kommandos have 2 of the most ridiculously awesome abilities in the game for a stealth unit.

but ... at the very least flash-gits get their beamy upgrade which changes the whole squad into something unique.

And i think that is , in the end, the issue with kasrkins. They need to be more unique. or rather the abilities that make them unique need to perform better or at-least mesh better.

there is no need for only 40% of their squad to get their upgrades they aren't guardsmen , who are built to take losses and work well still. they are supposed to be elite infantry.

[egewithin]

they are supposed to be elite infantry.

-Strongest ranged squad of IG.

-With their Sergant, they can outshoot a devestator squad thans to their courage. Tacs have 100 cr, Karskin have 250.

-They can cap 50% faster.

-Do I have to say anything about Grenade Launchers?

-If plasma does just a little more damage than GM plasma, go with melta. Same damage with Techmarine.

-They start with anti infantry and anti vehicle bombs without any additional cost.

-They do more damage than vanillia Storm Troopers without their weapons.

Codex says they have infantry armor btw. Is it true? If not ; - They have heavy infantry armor which makes them much durable.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Let us not forget that the Kasrkins have a +50% faster capping trade, once the Sergeant has been purchased. If you also take a look at the throwing radius of the grenades you will notice that it is superior to the STs and ASMs by +12 (20 vs 32) and does more damage.

[saltychipmunk]

they are supposed to be elite infantry.

-Strongest ranged squad of IG.

-With their Sergant, they can outshoot a devestator squad thans to their courage. Tacs have 100 cr, Karskin have 250.

-They can cap 50% faster.

-Do I have to say anything about Grenade Launchers?

-If plasma does just a little more damage than GM plasma, go with melta. Same damage with Techmarine.

-They start with anti infantry and anti vehicle bombs without any additional cost.

-They do more damage than vanillia Storm Troopers without their weapons.

Codex says they have infantry armor btw. Is it true? If not ; - They have heavy infantry armor which makes them much durable.

1 that is only when looking at on paper stats, it doesn't really look at the tier they come in , the resources they cost or the potential levels other units have.

2 If i find a t3 ranged unit that cant take care of a t1 setup unit , that t3 ranged unit should probably kill itself. again who cares about being able to stand in a t1 units suppression cone and out shoot them. while it is quite novel , it does not exactly yield a particularly special result (forcing the set up off) artillery units of every kind imaginable would have been doing this exact thing since t2.

3 tacs cap 50% faster 2 that hardly makes them the elite unit of sm. so again irrelevant

4 one upgrade does not make up for the rest of the mediocrity

5 the bombs are extremely weak for the tier they are in and the cost is the fact that they are t3 and cost power.

6 storm troopers cost no power , do 4 less dps and are in t2

7 heavy armor in any tier other than t1 or against orks is not a particularly special feature given how many plasma / power weapons exist in t3.

[Dark Riku]

they have better base hit points and fewer models . but that is thrown away by the heavy infantry armor since t3 is plasma hell.

That makes absolutely no sense when talking about Orks. Who would get plasma damage versus Orks? A race with mostly infantry armor.

3 tacs cap 50% faster 2 that hardly makes them the elite unit of sm. so again irrelevant

Irrelevant you say? Let's remove it then, shall we?

[ytimk]

Guardsmen with plasma guns have a total of 24,72 plasma damage.

Kaskrins with plasma guns have a total of 32,94 plasma damage

Kaskrins have double the regeneration value of the default 0.5 hp/s standard.

Kaskrins have 150 courage (which effectively means +50% more courage then regular troops) which results in them being alot more potent against supression type damage sources. This can be improved furthermore by the sergeant, granting them +100 more courage. For an example. 200 courage means that they can almost go toe-to-toe with supression team at max range, and fully ignore the supression effect completely.

Kaskrins have a total of 64,7 dps out of the gate (Can be improved up to 81,03 w+sergeant), with 45 range + 2 Grenade options (Frag & Krak). For comparison sake.

Stormtrooper have a total of 60 dps out of the gate, with 38 range + Invisibility (Grenades require seperate upgrade) and turns them into specialists.

The weapon stats of the Stormtrooper & Kaskrins are different in the sense, that Stormtrooper deliever a large chunk of burst damage. Meaning there are intervals between the damage spunges. Whereas Kaskrins are more opted for consistent and raw damage output over longer periods of time, if they are left unchecked.

Calling Kaskrins awful/useless is an overexagurration based on their cost effiency performance, espicially when you compare them to the other units within the roster, if anything - they have a remarkably and cheap cost for their effiency out of the gate, and needless to say - flexibility.

Just want make clear I'm in no way saying 'useless' (or creating a thread to poke that response), but am curious as to why these T3 elite troops dont get fielded as much. Please remember I'm a complete noob who cant play and is basing a lot of my info off codex stats.

I just have some questions about whether (big 'if') Kasrkins should be a little bit 'more' for the deafult asking price (I'm trying to focus on 1v1 utility here). Eg
- +10 standard sight range to be equal to Storms;
- a bit more melee skill and/or melee damage to reflect their elite nature (ie little less % chance to suffer special attack);

Would it be consistent with their elite nature (and price) that 3 models get new weapons (launchers, melta, plasma) when they upgrade? These upgrades are also an added cost on top of existing power.

Maybe a bit more value for money with the Sarge?:
-better fire on the move accuracy?;
-speed/acceleration boost?

I am trying to keep in mind that when T3 hits what are they going to be facing: nukes, super units, levelled walkers and set up teams, artillery, HI and SHI, and tanks. Sure lots of courage is great but all that explosive damage.....

Just a question on their Krak grenades - is the extra damage worth the trade-off of a timer-based snare? How valuable would a mobile snare be for IG in T3? This is consideration of the fact that tanks (except LR?) got their speed increased in 2.4.2.

Again I'm an utter noob so please shut me down everyone if this becomes too much theorycraft dribble, I like the constructive points and tactics talk that sometimes get raised.

[saltychipmunk]

they have better base hit points and fewer models . but that is thrown away by the heavy infantry armor since t3 is plasma hell.

That makes absolutely no sense when talking about Orks. Who would get plasma damage versus Orks? A race with mostly infantry armor.

3 tacs cap 50% faster 2 that hardly makes them the elite unit of sm. so again irrelevant

Irrelevant you say? Let's remove it then, shall we?

most , is not all , and if they get even one critical unit vulnerable to plasma then it is fair game.
eldar technically don't have many heavy infantry units either but getting a plasma source to bleed dark reapers is a fantastic way to hurt some eldar eco.

plus it disregards the fact that many melee upgrades come with either power melee or melee heavy anyway. most squad leaders of melee squads fall into this category , most t3 melee squads fall into this category. so it is not like you are particularly losing anything by having a power melee / plasma source.

also orks have nobs...


wouldn't particularly care either way about the tacs losing their capping power , with or without it they are still weaker than strikes and better than unsupported /nonupgraded csm. it might hurt more in 1v1 where capping is hyper emphasized but that is simply a given.

[Crewfinity]

they have better base hit points and fewer models . but that is thrown away by the heavy infantry armor since t3 is plasma hell.

That makes absolutely no sense when talking about Orks. Who would get plasma damage versus Orks? A race with mostly infantry armor.

3 tacs cap 50% faster 2 that hardly makes them the elite unit of sm. so again irrelevant

Irrelevant you say? Let's remove it then, shall we?

most , is not all , and if they get even one critical unit vulnerable to plasma then it is fair game.
eldar technically don't have many heavy infantry units either but getting a plasma source to bleed dark reapers is a fantastic way to hurt some eldar eco.

plus it disregards the fact that many melee upgrades come with either power melee or melee heavy anyway. most squad leaders of melee squads fall into this category , most t3 melee squads fall into this category. so it is not like you are particularly losing anything by having a power melee / plasma source.

also orks have nobs...


wouldn't particularly care either way about the tacs losing their capping power , with or without it they are still weaker than strikes and better than unsupported /nonupgraded csm. it might hurt more in 1v1 where capping is hyper emphasized but that is simply a given.

This is all completely irrelevant because Kasrkin DO NOT, as a matter of fact, have heavy infantry armor.

[saltychipmunk]

true , but my underlying point was that by the time t3 does roll around there will so much of every damage type or at the very least players will have easy access to every damage type to make armor at best mostly a moot point and at worst a pretty large liability.

infantry armor.. heavy infantry .. super heavy. chances are there will be something that will simply rip right through any of those. So in the end it all boils down to model count and unit hp and while kasrkins have more hp they don't have nearly enough to make them feel more durable in end game .

[Crewfinity]

here's the way I see it:
if you make it to T3 as IG and you have a decent army or bought storm troopers in T2, you're almost always better off with the Leman Russ. it fits better with the IG playstyle and the synergy with GM is nuts. however, imagine you're in a 1v1 and you lost a few squads on the way to T3. kasrkin are an awesome purchase in this case. you get large amounts of firepower for cheap, and they're an incredibly independent unit when you look at their traits. they have a high health pool, high sustain damage, high courage, high health regen, grenades and versatility in weapon upgrades, and faster capping speed. This unit excels at moving around the map, capping points quickly and winning most 1 on 1 unit matchups. yeah they're not a great frontline damage dealer/sponge, thats what your tanks are for. they're much more an elite late game infantry; versatile, powerful, and independent, in a role much more similar to kommandos than flash gitz. yeah storm troopers might be better at specializing as damage dealers, but they lack a lot of the utility that kasrkins offer. dont look at this unit as something thats supposed to be a better version of storm troopers or guardsmen, it fits a different role entirely.

[saltychipmunk]

funny you should mention komandos , because i would never ever compare them to komandos (mostly because unlike kasrkins the abilities komandos get compliment eachother).


the burna bomb is a slow but stupidly damaging dot ability that only really works with infiltration
their knock back ability is the best in the business for throwing off an opponents army
they get a rocket launcher on their nob which works great with the stealth to murder lingering light vehicles like manticores and WW's but the important thing to take away from the nob is that he adds to the damage type of the kommandos and is more or less self contained

on the other hand kaskrins abilities dont . they get grenades , but their huge selling point is their long range. so a brittle as fuck (for t3 mind you) long ranged support unit that doesn't do that much damage for their cost (they dont 64 out of gate perice is not alot) get two short range grenades and nothing to keep them safe on the move in... it doesn't work well. same with their squad leader , his main selling point is the extra courage and the cap speed , but again on a brittle long ranged unit whose main selling point is the range (atleast when you first buy them).

and where as the upgrade that adds a damage type to the kommandos is self contained ; the upgrades on kasrkins are not.... they get 2 weapons and too hell if the range on those two weapons work with the other 3 -4 members of the squad.

conceptually as a unit kasrkins just conflict with themselves , at the very least kommandos know exactly what they are and do a damn fine job .

[Foma]

burna bomb is especially hilarious when thrown in IG base when guards blob retreats with autoreinforce active...pretty hilarious sight, the piles of bodies.

back to kasr:

base range 45, plasma upgrade down to 38, melta to 24.

storms who have cloak as an accessory have 38 range, get AI upgrade, 20% range = +7,6. 38+7,6=45,6 (0.6 more than kasrkin)
storms with 'AT' upgrade get 20 range, but 61,75 melta dps, vs 42 of kasrk.

when you need antivehicle you get storms, when you need anti inf you get storms again. Anti heavy infantry you get guards.

if you need some aoe you could get sentinel/s if they didnt overshoot (or attack ground) for more reliable role + knockback you can get these. But why t3 and a grenade launcher in the first place. At least that is where the upgrade doesnt lower the squad range, to 5-55. But is isnt like youre gonna kill something with it. They are seemingly always a liability, grenades are useless vs moving targets. What that means their upgrades dont really fit them imo.

Theyre basically best without up(de)grading them. Avery strange unit.
Maybe dps increase would cut it? Or what? A redesign? -If so, what should be done, what does really make them stand out or should / lore?

I mean I used them but I never got the desired effect. Tanks seemed to do a better job except for capping. But why use such an expensive unit for a non-combat task.