I really want to like this game more than I do right now.

[Snarfindorf]

This game just seems utterly broken. I've been playing for about 3 weeks, which is by no means a long time and i'm not claiming to have any kind of experience over other people, but facts are facts. No matter what I do, how I play or what I change about my play style, I always get rolled over by better or equal players who choose to play the best factions.

Chaos plague champ just seems utterly broken. Havocs are perfect in any situation, plague champ grenades decimate infantry forces and the noxious cloud global is, in many cases, better than a 500 point global. Early game cultist chases are also monstrously superior to any other faction chase.

GK are completely unbalanced, everyone knows this so who cares.

Wraithguard are also uncounterable. You can't tie them down in melee because they can just walk forward and fire as if they were never in melee. Eldar 111 build also completely destroys anything the other factions (other than chaos) can put out early game. Lost a lot of gen farms to them destroying squads early.

I wouldn't be making a post like this if I thought any of this could be countered by changing up a play style, but seriously. Every time I face chaos, no matter how I play, I eventually die to upgraded havocs, 2 squads of cultists with aspiring and mark of tzeench csm who, for some reason, can destroy vehicles AND infantry with ease.

Don't hate me if you think I don't understand the game. I want you to tell me why i'm wrong about all of this. I know factions need their own flavor, but take the Orks for example. Bigga shootas t1 are extremely powerful, but counterable. Complete gen wipe 5 minutes into the game because Eldar decided to spam guardians is not very counterable.

I'm at the point now where i'm just going to play plague champ until the next patch hits. I think I can give an unbiased portrayal of all the races because I don't play one race for extended periods of time, which I remedy by learning all I can about the races I enjoy playing which is why I think I know a little about balance.

Edit: Also forgot to mention SM snipers and the general bullshittery against races who don't have a counter (pretty much every one).

[Crewfinity]

chaos is notoriously noob friendly.

Facts are facts indeed, but all your points are not facts, but rather opinions. If you're only 3 weeks into the game, why are you posting in this section? Post instead in the strategy section asking how to counter what you're seen, with maybe a bit less hyperbole. I get that seeing the same units used against you and not knowing how to counter them can be frustrating, but channel that into critical thinking and trying to improve rather than calling OP.

As for plague champ: he's the best counter melee commander there is, but he's slow. try not to run into engagements where he has havocs set up and heretics worshipping, you're walking into a fight where he has the better position. instead, try to spread out more, play the map control game and get suppression teams instead of melee units to try to control him more. grenades and plague cloud can be avoided with better micro, that just takes practice. Cultists are super weak to ranged damage and suppression, if he's being aggressive with them you need to back off and punish him for it by kiting with ranged units.

GK are strong but counterable. how to counter them depends on your race.

Wraithguard are also strong but not uncounterable. if you're able to get into melee with them you should already be winning the engagement. just make sure you keep shuffling your ranged units around to reduce the AOE damage. Eldar 111 build is good but it has many weaknesses, including a very fast push to their gen farm (see Tex vs Holyhammer in the last 1v1 MRT).

If you're losing lots of gen farms early on, then stop making gen farms so early and focus on getting more units out so you can win your engagements.

Mark of Tzeentch CSM do very minimal damage to vehicles. its probably autocannon havocs you're talking about. but they're a setup team so you can get around their arc of fire.

A lot of these things will get better with practice and micro. be prepared to lose a lot before you start to really get good at this game. dont get frustrated, just work on mistakes you can see you made, ask questions about strategies if you want. A lot of people on here wont respect your tone if you come in saying that you're a noob and that the game is completely unbalanced. its not, it just takes getting used to.

[Snarfindorf]

chaos is notoriously noob friendly.

Facts are facts indeed, but all your points are not facts, but rather opinions. If you're only 3 weeks into the game, why are you posting in this section? Post instead in the strategy section asking how to counter what you're seen, with maybe a bit less hyperbole. I get that seeing the same units used against you and not knowing how to counter them can be frustrating, but channel that into critical thinking and trying to improve rather than calling OP.

As for plague champ: he's the best counter melee commander there is, but he's slow. try not to run into engagements where he has havocs set up and heretics worshipping, you're walking into a fight where he has the better position. instead, try to spread out more, play the map control game and get suppression teams instead of melee units to try to control him more. grenades and plague cloud can be avoided with better micro, that just takes practice. Cultists are super weak to ranged damage and suppression, if he's being aggressive with them you need to back off and punish him for it by kiting with ranged units.

GK are strong but counterable. how to counter them depends on your race.

Wraithguard are also strong but not uncounterable. if you're able to get into melee with them you should already be winning the engagement. just make sure you keep shuffling your ranged units around to reduce the AOE damage. Eldar 111 build is good but it has many weaknesses, including a very fast push to their gen farm (see Tex vs Holyhammer in the last 1v1 MRT).

If you're losing lots of gen farms early on, then stop making gen farms so early and focus on getting more units out so you can win your engagements.

Mark of Tzeentch CSM do very minimal damage to vehicles. its probably autocannon havocs you're talking about. but they're a setup team so you can get around their arc of fire.

A lot of these things will get better with practice and micro. be prepared to lose a lot before you start to really get good at this game. dont get frustrated, just work on mistakes you can see you made, ask questions about strategies if you want. A lot of people on here wont respect your tone if you come in saying that you're a noob and that the game is completely unbalanced. its not, it just takes getting used to.

None of your points really even address whether any of these tactics are overpowered or not. Also, i'll post in whatever sub I like, thanks.

Just saying "plague champ is strong because he's anti-melee, but he's slow etc." doesn't discuss the balance behind it at all. Yeah, plague champ is slow, but he's also IMMENSELY tanky. If he gets into melee (he will get into melee 90% of the time), his countless aoe abilities will decimate your forces.

GK are strong but counterable? Pretty much tells me that we'll never agree on balancing.

[Swift]

I look at this and it screams L2P. if these issues existed in the state you claim them to exist, wouldn't the people who have played the game so long have noticed these and got them fixed?

I'm not going to comment with advice because you already decided to ignore Crewfinity's, and I am a hugely out of practise player anyway so I don't reckon anything I say could help, except get more practise, most of the players on the mod in 1v1 will be far more experienced because the 1v1 community is so small. If it's a team game perspective then the strategies become broader, but it does not mean they are all uncounterable. If you think something is OP, play it vs a more skilled player and see how they beat it, and then employ those tactics next time you play against it. Nothing is unbeatable if you have the skill.

[Atlas]

I'd recommend playing 1v1s to really determine the balance of compositions. 3v3 really skews towards a particular playstyle and limits a lot of options imo. Sometimes what you might think is OP in teams is perfectly fine in 1v1s.

[Snarfindorf]

I look at this and it screams L2P. if these issues existed in the state you claim them to exist, wouldn't the people who have played the game so long have noticed these and got them fixed?

I'm not going to comment with advice because you already decided to ignore Crewfinity's, and I am a hugely out of practise player anyway so I don't reckon anything I say could help, except get more practise, most of the players on the mod in 1v1 will be far more experienced because the 1v1 community is so small. If it's a team game perspective then the strategies become broader, but it does not mean they are all uncounterable. If you think something is OP, play it vs a more skilled player and see how they beat it, and then employ those tactics next time you play against it. Nothing is unbeatable if you have the skill.

This seems like intellectual dishonesty. The issues i'm trying to discuss seem to be mostly present only in the current patch, not months. I already do what you suggested, which is how I've progressed so much as a player, but when you see people spamming wraithguard or banning GK you have to look at the game and ask yourself why people do this.

This is the main issue that people seem to have: look at the player, not the game. You're telling me to practice? Do you understand that i'm trying to discuss BALANCE? I'm not ignoring anyone, but when you tell me to practice i'm obviously not going to take you seriously. You don't know me.

[Snarfindorf]

I'd recommend playing 1v1s to really determine the balance of compositions. 3v3 really skews towards a particular playstyle and limits a lot of options imo. Sometimes what you might think is OP in teams is perfectly fine in 1v1s.

I'm basing all my beliefs purely on 1v1ing someone in a lane in a 3v3. Of course i'm not going to complain about balance based on getting 2v1'd by two grey knight players. +

[Swift]

How much experience do you have in the game, first off, because I think this would clarify things better.

[Crewfinity]

None of your points really even address whether any of these tactics are overpowered or not. Also, i'll post in whatever sub I like, thanks.

Just saying "plague champ is strong because he's anti-melee, but he's slow etc." doesn't discuss the balance behind it at all. Yeah, plague champ is slow, but he's also IMMENSELY tanky. If he gets into melee (he will get into melee 90% of the time), his countless aoe abilities will decimate your forces.

GK are strong but counterable? Pretty much tells me that we'll never agree on balancing.

Well then, let me address that directly:
none of those tactics are overpowered. happy?
those are all strong, particularly in team games, but there's plenty of room for counterplay, you just have to experiment and improve. if you want specific examples or strategies then ask for them.

You're making blanket statements about balance about a game you're new to, and when other people (more experienced than you) tell you that the truth is more complex, you're essentially putting your hands over your ears and yelling OP. I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish. If you're trying to get better or figure out how to counter those things, you're approaching it entirely the wrong way. If you just want to rant a bit about things that are frustrating to play against then i wish you the best, but dont expect everyone else to have shared your experiences.

[Wise Windu]

I'm basing all my beliefs purely on 1v1ing someone in a lane in a 3v3. Of course i'm not going to complain about balance based on getting 2v1'd by two grey knight players. +

Laning in a 3v3 is not necessarily indicative of balance. Part of 3v3 games is team play. If you're having a tough time against your opponent, it is to your team's benefit for you to call for help. Having the advantage in a resource lane can make or break a game. Some races do have advantages in these situations because, unlike actual 1v1s, there is much less room to maneuver and out-position someone, so a race that can entrench themselves and counter-initiate well can do well for themselves. If you find yourself in a situation where this is the case, don't try to force the issue, and support a teammate in the middle lane to force your lane opponent to come to you.

[Cyris]

As a general note, DoW2 is, to me, a game of OP things fighting each other. Find the best way to utilize your OP shit, and how to mitigate the effectiveness of your opponents OP shit.

But yeah, GK are not fair in 3v3, though I maintain they are fine in 1v1.

[Crewfinity]

As a general note, DoW2 is, to me, a game of OP things fighting each other. Find the best way to utilize your OP shit, and how to mitigate the effectiveness of your opponents OP shit.

But yeah, GK are not fair in 3v3, though I maintain they are fine in 1v1.

Hahaha love it. good way to look at this game XD


honestly though i really dont think GK is as absurd in team games as people are making them out to be. in general these larger games have much more artillery and ranged blobs. operatives are much less effective than they are in 1v1 since their speed and stealth isnt as important, and they can bleed a lot to ranged blobs. IST bleed like crazy in team games, and GK counter melee is even more ineffectual than in 1v1 since kiting and ratting is less of a viable tactic. so their t1 is nowhere near as dominant as it is in 1v1, which is one of their biggest advantages. they lack really hard vehicle counters or good transitional AV, and are more vulnerable to vehicle rushes than other factions. Come t3 they get RETREATING TERMINATORS ZOMG. but now that there's a 5 minute cooldown its really not that much worse than being able to warp out a K-dread. with the amount of plasma damage and artillery available in 3v3 they can be countered with the purchases people usually make in T2 against GK (like bloodletters, autocannon havocs, TCSM, etc). Not having access to main battle tanks really helps to balance out their T3. Yeah you'll have games where paladins teleport in, kill your leman russ while tanking fire, then retreat, but the cooldown on that is quite long now, and they play like normal terminators while its on cooldown. besides that even, they cost 700/150 and take a dickyear to build, they HAVE to be having that kind of impact to be worth it at all, and they can bleed anyway. Yeah GK can be frustrating to play against but I really dont think they're unfair to the level people think they are. the meta just has to adjust still.

[Forestradio]

As a general note, DoW2 is, to me, a game of OP things fighting each other.

if this were true every tournament game would be a la mirror match but w/e

on topic, 99% of things that ppl say are imba or op or up can be played around, if you really think something is imbalanced than play it from both sides, find out what works and what doesn't work against it, so you can figure out how to counter it better

and play more 1v1 if you want to improve

[peachesenregalia]

I actually think GK are totally balanced, it's Nids that are OP. Ask anyone.

[Codex]

I kinda wanted to write a comprehensive long post, but since I'm sitting here waiting for a game to start, I'll just break down one of your concerns and perhaps deal with the rest later.

You mentioned flavour. In my mind there are many true generalist statements you can make about races. OP is generally not one of them.

So let's examine Chaos. Their units are generally speed 5 (their commanders are generally slower than 5, Sorc has 5 the Chaos Lord 4.5). They're a slow cumbersome race without access to a transport. Chaos Lord is the exception but he needs to use worship to get +2 speed, and if he goes for only 1 heretic this doesn't allow him to layer worship to gain (virtually) permanent speed bonus. Also, if he goes for 1 tic he won't be able to use them for melee duty in conjunction with speed worship.

Their slowness is offset by their potency in combat. They generally have superior damage to their Space Marine counterparts and their Heavy Infantry generally has a resistance to bleed, but heretics bleed a lot. Further, all commanders have access to fantastic AOE (from commander wargear, units and globals). What you get is a race that is generally very potent in concentrated fights. The more units the better, since there's a lot of synergy between their units and a LOT of AOE.

Therefore in general you don't really want to engage Chaos headon in a blobby fight: that only benefits Chaos by racial design. What you do want to do is outmaneuver them, go somewhere else and force an objective. When they split up, you can pick at their trailing units, who, by design, are slow and kiteable. Force him to deblob, and Chaos will be less effective.

I'm glad the response you've received has not been overly negative. But you should always be careful at declaring sweeping statements of knowledge, because you appear to have the attitude that you've barely started playing the game, but you know the facts to be fact. One of the reasons for this is that balance itself is relative, in the sense that the race that you consider is so strong in theory is in practice RELATIVE. As I detailed above, Chaos is slow and cumbersome, but awesome at epic large blobby engagements. This makes them many times stronger in 3v3 than they are in 1v1:

- The map control game is a bigger concern (there's more capping points per person than in 2v2 and 3v3)
- There's more room to maneuver (there's more space per person in 1v1)
- There's more VPs per person (more VPs that you're personally responsible for maintaining)
etc
These things expose Chaos's slow movement.

Further to this, your perception of what's strong is also relative to skill level. An example of this is the Sentinel:

- It's single entity so it doesn't bleed until it dies;
- It synergises really well with GM and repair to apply a lot of pressure in fights early on;
- It applies a lot of map pressure by decapping and being hard to chase down
- It has superior mobility so it is very hard to catch.

This makes them ungodly good at applying early pressure to your opponent, and possibly to sweep him off the map. However, they require a lot of micro to use well, as it requires micro to make sure they're facing the opponent for maximal damage output, even while kiting, and if it's poorly microed it will just die. If they take too much damage too cheaply they will change from assets to burdens, as you're suddenly spending a lot of time repairing it and now you've taken 2 or 3 units out of the fight/ map control game.

Sentinels are the perfect example of a unit that is really excellent at the higher levels of play and absolutely terrible at lower levels. Would it be possible that some of your statements are not true 100% of the time, but instead based off perceptions from games of your skill level?

[Batpimp]

You're making blanket statements about balance about a game you're new to, and when other people (more experienced than you) tell you that the truth is more complex, you're essentially putting your hands over your ears and yelling OP. I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish. If you're trying to get better or figure out how to counter those things, you're approaching it entirely the wrong way. If you just want to rant a bit about things that are frustrating to play against then i wish you the best, but dont expect everyone else to have shared your experiences.

crew finity could not have said it better himself. He is a much more capable warboss player in 1v1 or 3v3 and I was able to defeat him one time because I am firmly in control of the aspects of the warboss.

all I hear is complaining as well. Not once did you ask, how do I deal with this? you show arrogance as to the fact that a GUARANTEED more experienced player like crew is telling you, you are overreacting and then you EXPECT us to show poise? Get a clue bro and off your highorse. Most everyone who is a continual poster on this forum is GLAD to have more players. 1v1 2v2 3v3 or otherwise. More people to play against. Coming in here saying shits broken and telling everyone to eff off is guaranteed get you the same response.

[Dogman]

This guy is an utter troll that doesn't listen to advice and blabbers on about random topics because he doesn't know how to play the game. Take a chill pill bro and like someone else in the thread said earlier, L2P. "Intellectual dishonesty" my ass.

[Codex]

Alright, the point has been made, no need to continually dogpile him just because he has a controversial stance.

[BbBoS]

Off-topic but...

Is your ingame name "Hard Computer Player" ?

[Superhooper01]

U are lucky alot of people are clam and good at handling rants, please learn the game and dont just rant about something u arent handling well

[Bahamut]

plague champ IS OP and chaos is in general. No point arguing about it.. IG squads are speed 5, SM squads are speed 5, actually everything except eldar is speed 5. As codex stated, they're too strong by design and sadly that means they are OP by design no way around it. no race has access to transports in t1 except GK and the fact that the answers are always: "flank, double against, outmaneuver" means everyone knows you just can't beat chaos head on but sadly people got used to it.

The people that will say chaos is balanced is because they only play 1v1, or they spend 75%+ of their time in 1v1s.. in 2v2 and 3v3 chaos "weakness" is completely mitigated.. hell, there's a big amount of maps that don't even allow you to "flank and outmaneuver". And not only that, 1v1 games hardly get to t3 and even worse, get past a second t3 purchase, so the 1v1 players don't know how retarded hard it gets to beat chaos players with stacked terminator squads and LRPs

[Swift]

That's a harsh generalisation of 1v1 players.

[Codex]

Woah, don't twist my words. I never said that "Chaos are too strong by design".

[Bahamut]

Well, i'm not twisting your words, the chaos design is well stablished and this is not up to discussion. Chaos is all about raw power and "selfishness". Chaos is designed around stat superiority since they have no "internal synergy" with buff, they rely in just massive damage upfront and in outpowering the opponent. It is true chaos lacks mobility to counter that, so map control is way harder with chaos and that is supposed to balance the faction for competitive play BUT 2v2 and 3v3 maps don't always allow that, therefore their balancing factor is taken away and what do you get? an OP faction by design

Both chaos and IG are very similar(wonder they are both expansion races) they are both centered in range superiority, and both lacked tools to deal with certain situations in t1, specially both lacked suppression counters in retail, which they no longer suffer in ELITE. Also both factions rely in sentinel for IG and heretics for chaos to counter melee since their core units get completely shut down by melee, and both units were coincidentally overperforming in retail. The only real difference between them is that chaos gets all the goodies where IG gets the backend on the good stuff simply because game mechanics favour low model count squads over high model count squads.. less forced bleed (it is easier or maybe "lucky" to control bleed way more with low model count squads OH FUCKING SM DONT EVER BLEED!!!) and AoE abilities tend to utterly decimante high model count squads.. a gaunt/GM squad can actually wipe to a blight nade, or some lucky stikkbombs. low model count squads.. not so much

[Atlas]

Well, i'm not twisting your words, the chaos design is well stablished and this is not up to discussion. Chaos is all about raw power and "selfishness". Chaos is designed around stat superiority since they have no "internal synergy" with buff, they rely in just massive damage upfront and in outpowering the opponent. It is true chaos lacks mobility to counter that, so map control is way harder with chaos and that is supposed to balance the faction for competitive play BUT 2v2 and 3v3 maps don't always allow that, therefore their balancing factor is taken away and what do you get? an OP faction by design

Both chaos and IG are very similar(wonder they are both expansion races) they are both centered in range superiority, and both lacked tools to deal with certain situations in t1, specially both lacked suppression counters in retail, which they no longer suffer in ELITE. Also both factions rely in sentinel for IG and heretics for chaos to counter melee since their core units get completely shut down by melee, and both units were coincidentally overperforming in retail. The only real difference between them is that chaos gets all the goodies where IG gets the backend on the good stuff simply because game mechanics favour low model count squads over high model count squads.. less forced bleed (it is easier or maybe "lucky" to control bleed way more with low model count squads OH FUCKING SM DONT EVER BLEED!!!) and AoE abilities tend to utterly decimante high model count squads.. a gaunt/GM squad can actually wipe to a blight nade, or some lucky stikkbombs. low model count squads.. not so much

Well actually by that logic IG would be the most op faction ever because not only do they have ranged superiority, but they have the Sentinel which has even less models than a CSM squad. At least you could attempt to focus fire the heretics, but the Sentinel is just invincible :O

It's a common assumption that Chaos is very newb friendly but idk. Just because it is straightforward doesn't mean that it's op because of it. Really, you're highlighting a problem with team games and not one with imbalance per se. Again, if you're looking for a balanced and challenging match go play 1v1s. 3v3s are more for people who like watching things explode.

[Lichtbringer]

Easiest answer: If you think, something is OP... play it yourself. If you always win with it, play against better players untill you lose with it. If they have to be vastly better then you, you can take it as fact that it IS a beginner friendly strategy. If you lose with it at your level, absolutlely balanced.
If you win with it against Tex or co., in a tournament I'll take it as fact that its OP.

Then when you have accepted that something is not OP, or that is is OP in beginners hands, you can try to improve yourself so that it isn't OP against you anymore.

Or, just find other players like you, add them in Steam and rant there about balance
You know, even I need some time with other Eldarplayers where I can unreasonably rant about perceived imbalances in my favorite race

[ytimk]

3v3s are more for people who like watching things explode.

YES. Thats why I really like this mod and game - unique blend of strategy, tactics, and all the theatrics of war.

[Codex]

It is true chaos lacks mobility to counter that, so map control is way harder with chaos and that is supposed to balance the faction for competitive play BUT 2v2 and 3v3 maps don't always allow that, therefore their balancing factor is taken away and what do you get? an OP faction by design

Teamplay and team movement is your counterplay against the slow Chaos race... there's still nothing forcing you to run headlong into a Chaos blob in 2v2 or 3v3. Just apply pressure somewhere else and force him to deblob. At the very least Chaos tend to be highly dependent on Heretics so try to force them off and the heavy infantry+ commander becomes much more vulnerable.

So yes you are twisting my words. This is no different from charging into the ideal SM blob, you simply don't want to do it. In an even game state there's always something you can do to influence it in your favour, which means you don't have to charge into an ideal Chaos blob either.

EDIT:

If 3v3 makes Chaos OP because their slowness isn't an issue and combat prowess is everything, surely that would make a fragile but fast race like Eldar suck at 3v3, and make them probably the worst. At least the worst in T1, right? (which will have ramifications for the rest of the game.) Unfortunately, that just isn't true. The value of mobility in team games (exemplified by Eldar) shows that your argument is simplistic and doesn't account for all the factors.

[Dark Riku]

+1 to everything that Codex said.

[egewithin]

Is your ingame name "Hard Computer Player" ?

His nickname is a whole new level of trolling.