Ogryns... to dam expensive?

[The great Cornholio]

Iam not an IG players.. but i really think that we need to lower the cost of ogryns.
with bonehead they cost 525-115 and i just find that to expensive for a unit like that...

they cost more or less the same as a space marine dread and the only advantage they have over a dread is that they can retreat and you can be pretty sure that the bonehead will die a lot during a game which will just make it even more expensive.

so maybe somthing like 450-65 would be more fair?

[DandyFrontline]

Totally agree. Ogryns are too damn expensive and too damn bad for their cost. Always trying to avoid that unit at all cost because usually it's just make you stay t2 for too damn long without profit.

They definitely need a decent cost reduction

[Sub_Zero]

Their initial cost isn't that bad actually but I definitely have problems with their reinforcement cost. Despite their armor type models die too easily. But I don't really mind changing their initial cost as well. They should have become cheaper when the change to walkers went through. Since they are the closest thing to a walker IG have and they are damn bad now compared to melee resistant walkers.

[saltychipmunk]

I usually throw them into the overpriced unit that has their defining ability on an unnecessary upgrade camp.


for their power cost i see absolutely no reason why they need to buy the bone head to get their charge. because that asking price sure as hell is not because of their otherwise mediocre stats .

but then you can argue the same for the nobs with that invulnerability upgrade. but atleast nobs are still more or less worth it .. even with the ridiculous overhead costs associated with them .

[The great Cornholio]

comparing them to nobs is a little crazy.... i just think they should be priced so you either get a manti or you get ogryns for about the same price more or less... they do bleed alot and A.T.M they are simply not worth the price..

[saltychipmunk]

not really that crazy when you think about it considering they do more or less the same thing prior to upgrades.

they are both slow moving
they both are heavy inf
they both have moderately high hp for their tier (though in the case of ogryns that might be less true , i dont remember their base hp off the top of my head but i was never particularly impressed by it)
they both can technically go toe to toe with some tanks .. just not well .

and they both have an insanely high power cost for what is essentially just a beefy conventional melee squad with a better damage type. that is all they are when you boil them down.

all of their defining traits are gated by even more expensive upgrades.

really the only major difference between them is one is in t2 and one is in t3 complete the appropriate scaling in stats (+ or - personal opinions) associated with the tier they show up in. well that and the already mentioned upgrades.

[Adeptus Noobus]

they both are heavy inf

Ogryns are Super Heavy Infantry.
Let us also not forget, that they syngergize very well with some of the respective heros' wargear. Hell, you can even stuff them into a Chimera. Also consider, that IG eco is otherwise very resistant to bleed (unless you also have Catas) because GM reinforce 3 at a time and cost so little at the same time.

[Asmon]

Ogryns don't bleed unless you're using them badly. Each model has 425 health of SHI with no size issue compared to Terminators. And the leader grants one of the best anti-melee abilities. Sometimes statisitics just speak for themselves, and justify the price.

Try and flank with them. Remember that melee walkers are not so useless now against melee infantry. Use Ogryns as you would use Banshees and you won't find yourself so sad about them. They're not Nobz or Terminators, and they shouldn't be.

[egewithin]

You can't compare Nobz and Ogryns. Not gonna say anything else just to keep topic on its way.

Yes Ogryns deserve a power cost and reinforce cost down. They are bleeding too much. And no, not because of micro, if enemy has the weapons to counter them, they will always bleed models.

[egewithin]

Another thing, they do knockback their own models while use your head ability. It becames more annoying if you have 2 of them.

[Dark Riku]

They don't knock back their own models, that would just be stupid.
They knock back friendlies though.

[egewithin]

It happened to me somehow. But even if they don't, it is impracticale in case of double use your head.

[Dark Riku]

Needing to micro is impractical?
If for whatever reason you went double Ogryns with double boneheads, spread them a little ...
Also harder for your enemy to hit you with Aoe. Win-win.

[Toilailee]

I always thought that +1 speed for armor of apo was impractical cos I wanna a-move my blob of tacs.

[enasni127]

honestly, besides them being SHI, having a knock back ability and so on, they just SUCK ASS! most of the time when i play ogryns it feels to be to my disadvantage and even more often i wish i had just (re)built catachans on t2. i like ogryns vs tyranids sometimes and they can work vs wraith guards in some cases but usually they feel like they are just too expensive and die like flies - especially the bonehead.

someone here said ogryns and chimeras are a good combo and thats true BUT you will for sure never reach t3 in any usual match after you drained money for a chimera and ogrnys and the ogryn-chimera play is overall much worse than a wartrukk filled with sluggas. it's like the mobile base: it sounds good but most of the time its utterly senseless.

here's what it would like to see:

1. give ogryns a T3 upgrade which makes them a tougher(hp and damage boost) and grants supression immunity on charge. i just think their 1875hp aren't enough and their damage seems too low on t3. and upgrade which grants an extra model or makes them a "bone'ead squad" would be awesome and justified imo.

2. reduce their energy costs, they are just too energy heavy when compared to other t2 units around all factions.

3. make them more killy. somehow ogryns are really bad killers and due to that almost never level up. they are also aweful at chasing units.

[Crewfinity]

What's up with all these posts complaining about IG economy lately?

They already have the best economy in the game when it comes to attrition battling. Yeah ogryns are expensive but the rest of the faction is so low - upkeep and low-bleed that I don't think it's a huge problem, they're somewhat akin to purifiers, but with a better armor type, an amazing ability, and they can also get in a chimera. Situational but still good, but they will bleed you dry if you're not careful. However, I really don't think that they need many buffs.

[enasni127]

What's up with all these posts complaining about IG economy lately?

They already have the best economy in the game when it comes to attrition battling. Yeah ogryns are expensive but the rest of the faction is so low - upkeep and low-bleed that I don't think it's a huge problem, they're somewhat akin to purifiers, but with a better armor type, an amazing ability, and they can also get in a chimera. Situational but still good, but they will bleed you dry if you're not careful. However, I really don't think that they need many buffs.

ig has a very big problem compared to other races, they don't have a vehicle mounted anti vehicle weapon on t2. this is the reason why ig players usually need a couple of t1/t2 units to effectively counter things like assault cannon dreadnoughts which can kill lascannon setups in one blast, melee down storm troopers (which will probably be senseles to build cause of detecting scouts).

usual options here are somethin like lascannon + manticore or storm troopers (snare) + ogryns to kill the snared dread and so on. you always need a couple of units and have big trouble there cause ig's t2 needs huge amounts of power compared to other races.

example:

1.the ig dude decides to play a chimera and get guardsmen upgrades
2. the sm/chaos answers with a dreadnought
3. ig needs av but which? storm troopers get detected and die like flies, lascannon setups gets knocked back or killed by the assault cannon, ogryns alone will die on the hunt or just be too slow to finish the dread off. so ig needs multiple units to counter a single dreadnought and wastes enegery for guardsmen, a chimera, a lascannon dev and a manticore/ogryns

[Bahamut]

well.. only GK and chaos got a vehicle mounted AV weapon really.

I'd agree with a power cost for ogryms, they're rly arent worth 90 power plus 25 for the bone ead. As cew said, they're akin to purifiers and 75 power sounds reasonable for a price tag

[Crewfinity]

example:

1.the ig dude decides to play a chimera and get guardsmen upgrades
2. the sm/chaos answers with a dreadnought
3. ig needs av but which? storm troopers get detected and die like flies, lascannon setups gets knocked back or killed by the assault cannon, ogryns alone will die on the hunt or just be too slow to finish the dread off. so ig needs multiple units to counter a single dreadnought and wastes enegery for guardsmen, a chimera, a lascannon dev and a manticore/ogryns

How does a dreadnought answer a chimera? you can just outmanuever him and bash power if he gets a dreadnought instead of an AV response.
it seems to me that the natural choice would be a lascannon, since they CANT get knocked back with the shield. so i dunno what you're really complaining about there, IG has probably the best AV setup team since its knockback and ranged damage resistant, doesnt resetup due to lead models dying, and has flexibility between the autocannon and lascannon. not to mention synergies with hero abilities like execute or LG buffs.
If they dreadnought tries to barrage them, they're get at least a couple shots as it approaches, and they can then reinforce any models lost due to the chimera. furthermore this means that the barrage is not being used on your squishy guardsmen, giving them free reign to bleed the rest of the SM army.

If the SM player gets an assault cannon dreadnought, it seems to me that Ogryns would be a great choice, since it has no melee resist or splash damage. they can ride up in the chimera and bash it while reinforcing, all the while tanking damage because SHI and reinforce.

pretty much all factions need several types of AV to counter a walker, thats why walkers are so expensive! if you think that IG AV is bad, try to counter a couple fast bloodcrushers with GK or a AC dreadnought with orks -_-

you also have fairly good transitional AV with the HWT, sentinel, and catachans/heros.

well.. only GK and chaos got a vehicle mounted AV weapon really.

I'd agree with a power cost for ogryms, they're rly arent worth 90 power plus 25 for the bone ead. As cew said, they're akin to purifiers and 75 power sounds reasonable for a price tag

They're somwhat akin to purifiers, except that they can reinforce on field due to chimera, are much more durable, are better at dealing with vehicles, and the rest of the faction bleeds much less. they also have twice as much ranged damage, and only cost 2 power more to reinforce than purifiers do, and have the exact same upkeep

really i think they're fine. maybe a small power decrease, but they are definitely better than purifiers, both in a vacuum and when looking at the factions as a whole.

[Cyris]

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I do think they are a little weak / expensive for a linebreaker. On the other hand, if there is one faction that shouldn't have a strong linebreaker, it's IG.

My gut is that they are fine overall. Any buffs to them would need to come with some other IG nerfs. I still believe IG to be tied for strongest faction with nids, so a straight buff to them is out of the question. They seem to preform their role just fine (linebacker, transport chasing and melee counter initiation) and I've seen some scarily effective Ogryns when supported with buffs / reinforce.

[saltychipmunk]

ogryns do not make good line breakers. they make good skirmishers. ogryns like any other conventional melee unit work on the idea that they can sop up enough damage on the trip in and still fight /win once in melee. so yeah like nobs , sluggas , banshees , gaunts. really any melee units operates on this principle to varying degree of success.. most of them even have similar abilities that increase their speed , give them some sort of ranged resistance on ability or have methods of increased durability. All that relies heavily on the absence of critical mass ranged damage or some sort of movement impairment.

marching any of those units .. even things like nobs into a comparably invested line.. is a fantastic way to take model losses.


no line breakers are units that break lines before said lines can do anything. like a walker with a charge , or an artillery unit . hell even catachans / spotters make better line breakers than ogryns.

ogryns are the units you break the line for using a myriad of disruptive abilities which are numerous on the ig faction. or for defending your own line from other line breaking units .. like jump units or a tank with charge etc. but good god never ever to lead a charge against a line

[Bahamut]

They're somwhat akin to purifiers, except that they can reinforce on field due to chimera, are much more durable, are better at dealing with vehicles, and the rest of the faction bleeds much less. they also have twice as much ranged damage, and only cost 2 power more to reinforce than purifiers do, and have the exact same upkeep

really i think they're fine. maybe a small power decrease, but they are definitely better than purifiers, both in a vacuum and when looking at the factions as a whole.

How are they more durable? they got SHI instead of HI armor type sure, but they have quite alot less hp per model so they're rly less efficient in melee against power melee and heavy melee. Also 15 power is not that big of a change is it?.

[saltychipmunk]

yeah using armor to determine durability in this game is making a faulty conclusion based on one very big assumption.
(the absence of plasma damage / power melee damage) .

a lot of races get a favorable damage type regardless of intentions.
most melee units get upgrades that are either power melee or melee heavy
and a few critical units get inferno, explosive or plasma as a given.

so it is not like you can throw a player off just because ig happens to be otherwise infantry dominated as an armor type. in the end that health pool just kills it for them.

[Crewfinity]

How are they more durable? they got SHI instead of HI armor type sure, but they have quite alot less hp per model so they're rly less efficient in melee against power melee and heavy melee. Also 15 power is not that big of a change is it?.

well first of all, they really should not be in melee with a unit that has power melee damage. they're not really a counter melee unit, so they dont want to go toe to toe with banshees, sluggas, genestealers, etc. heavy melee does the damge damage to SHI and HI so thats irrelevant when fighting walkers. their ability is nice in a pinch if they get stuck in, but they really want to be up bashing ranged units or vehicles.

Plasma damage also does the same amount to SHI and HI, so its not like having SHI is really a downside at all. where they shine is their resistance to piecing damage. much like MoK CSM or purifiers are HI melee units, good at soaking up ranged fire and then engaging ranged units, ogryns are even better at being damage sponges due to the modifier, taking less than half of the damage that HI units take.

I would rather have a 425 health model with SHI than a 500 health HI model anyday when it comes to that role.

furthermore, remember that they can hop into the chimera now!!! so useful for avoiding heavy plasma fire, counter melee squads, or whatever you may need to get away from.

if they were changed to 425/75 then they would be even cheaper than purifiers! with a better armor and damage type! 15 power may not seem like a lot but changing them to 425/75 is way too cheap for what they bring to the table imo

[Codex]

For the sake of science, I decided to trawl through the Codex to find out which damage types end up giving a superior multiplier against SHI than vs HI (i.e. situations where SHI is worse to have than HI would be):

http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... =sniper_hi (Eldar and SM snipers, 1.3 HI vs 1.5 SHI)
http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... =sniper_av (1 vs 1.1)
http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... master_pvp (Blastmaster, 1.3 vs 1.5)
http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... ore_rocket (Manticore, Emperor's Wrath, 1.25 vs 1.5)
http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... ehicle_pvp (0.3 vs 1)
http://www.dawnofwar.info/elite/damaget ... _vengeance (Sternguard Vengeance rounds, 1 vs 1.2)

Now of course the Codex might not be fully updated, that's always a possibility. But according to the Codex, that means very very few weapon types actually do superior damage to SHI. Many cases SHI takes less damage than HI, and in some it takes equal to HI. By design SHI was meant to be a superiority armour type, which makes sense. Ogryns were brought in to be a tough melee presence that forces your opponent to buy specialised (or at least upgraded) tools to deal with them, much like you have to invest yourself in some extra tools to deal with Walkers.

Ogryns get all the benefit from having an armour type superiority which is normally reserved for T3, without being either slow and single entity, or slow and cumbersome. Compared to SHI in T3, where most people already have a modicum of counters and everyone has access to snares to superunit SHI and AV type weapons for terminators.

The main issue then is, as noted by Bahamut, is their hp pool isn't the most efficient against melee (well, power melee and heavy melee, because SHI is VERY good against standard melee), and that the fact they tend to stand alone in melee makes them more vulnerable to bleed than their armour type and hp value would suggest. But the tradeoff with Ogryns of not being a walker is that they benefit from a lot of the infantry synergy that IG brings (inspire determination, Stealth armour from Inquisitor, Loyal to the End, LG's entire retinue, Chimera reinforce in the field etc. The list basically goes on). Especially back in the day when Inspire Determination was more potent, Loyal to the End was insane, Sentinels were even better pressure and whatnot, I didn't see anyone complain about how weak Ogryns were. They could hit in T2 so fast with their SHI that it was basically lulzworthy.

All in all, perhaps Ogryns might warrant a small cost reduction. Or perhaps the main thing is that they need to be used differently- since their hp and SHI isn't great against more upgraded melee, but superior to HI against most ranged forces, perhaps they should be used to dominate weaker melee and primarily ranged troops, and keep the stronger melee and dreads off Ogryn's back with snares and anti-melee tools. That way you can exploit their SHI stat, reduce bleed and damage to your own economy, and really apply the pressure.

[saltychipmunk]

well first of all, they really should not be in melee with a unit that has power melee damage. they're not really a counter melee unit, so they dont want to go toe to toe with banshees, sluggas, genestealers, etc. heavy melee does the damge damage to SHI and HI so thats irrelevant when fighting walkers. their ability is nice in a pinch if they get stuck in, but they really want to be up bashing ranged units or vehicles.

Plasma damage also does the same amount to SHI and HI, so its not like having SHI is really a downside at all.

you can also interpret that last line to mean that vs plasma it is not an upside either. that is why i say using armor as a yard stick of durability is not the best of things.

[Crewfinity]

That's true, but I think of plasma damage as a more specialized type, like melta damage or something. When I look at armor types, I'm usually thinking of default durability, by which I mean resistance to piercing. Plasma damage emerges as a counter to HI/SHI, so I don't really think it's as relevant as melee/piercing damage since it won't usually be around until the enemy purchases 8t in response to your ogryns.

I think looking at armor type can be valuable since the wide availability of piercing damage means that it is most of what you will be encountering in early T2, and when it comes to that SHI is absolutely more valuable than HI.

Anyway, +1 to everything codex said (as usual).

Ogryns are a very durable and hard hitting unit, and with the wide availability of support options that IG offers I think that they can be utilized quite well.

[Kvn]

While I'm not a super skilled IG player, I find that Ogryns work really well with Commissar Aura of Discipline. Thanks to their low model count they get big heals from it with each pulse, and often end up rolling over opponents who aren't heavily committed to anti-ogryn tech. Thanks to their big presence, they typically absorb a large amount of fire while closing in, only to have it healed back up by the mini-Spirit Stones-esq Aura. The downside to this of course is that your Ogryns and Commissar are more or less attached at the hip. Engaging with only one or the other will hurt your chances pretty badly, and it makes the man in red into a priority target for focus fire.

Races I've had great success with include SM, Eldar, Chaos, and to a certain extent GK (only if they go heavy on strikes, IST, and purgations though). The other races, Orks, Nids, IG, and non-ranged heavy GK do shut them down pretty well in my experience, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I personally think that Ogryns are very similar to walkers from other races insomuch as they are heavily dependent on being supported in order to function. All walkers need their repair support in order to stay alive, as well as that of the rest of their army to tie up their counters. Ogryns are in the same boat. On their own, they tend to bleed like crazy (even with IG's strong eco) and slow down teching heavily. When supported though, they become pretty nasty and difficult to deal with.

I don't think they particularly need a buff, but if they were to get one I'd suggest keeping it small since they can already be very powerful so long as you adjust your playstyle to benefit them.

[Black Relic]

If people really want a buff for ograns it would be there reinforcement cost. Lowing the power cost by a tad woulld be plenty. Any furthe r than that then they would over perform. And I think lowering the cost in power of the bome 'ead leader to 20 from 25 the unit wouldn't solve the problem of their cost/bleed.

Since its a SHI unit get an anti melee ability with their leader whom has respectable range and heavy melee dps (as the whole squad does), 25 power for the units leader is generous imo. So a reduction to his cost is out of the question.

Ograns do very well vs range oriented armies because of there charge and that the synergies well with all IG heros. to name one from each hero "Incoming" from LG, as mention previously "Aura of Discipline" from LC and infiltration from INQ (infiltrated units that aren't being detected by a detector take 20% less range damage). Their intital cost sounds perfect imo. But if people scream for a buff (and i am guilty for this) the buff it would find more than enough to reduce the cost when they reinforce by 2. Anything more seems a bit excessive.

[Toilailee]

What's up with all these posts complaining about IG economy lately?

They already have the best economy in the game when it comes to attrition battling.

Well, in short, no they don't.

In T1 with sentinels and gm they are definitely up there but from T2 onwards this only applies to one unit in their roster, all other infantry squads are quite prone to bleed.