Ogryns... to dam expensive?

[enasni127]

well.. only GK and chaos got a vehicle mounted AV weapon really.

ok, seems like i need to clearify that a bit more. i'm talking about some vehicle armor type unit which deals damage to infantry and vehicles like walkers do and i think every faction except ig has one

[enasni127]

1) If the SM player gets an assault cannon dreadnought, it seems to me that Ogryns would be a great choice, since it has no melee resist or splash damage. they can ride up in the chimera and bash it while reinforcing, all the while tanking damage because SHI and reinforce.

2) pretty much all factions need several types of AV to counter a walker, thats why walkers are so expensive! if you think that IG AV is bad, try to counter a couple fast bloodcrushers with GK or a AC dreadnought with orks -_-

to 1:
exactly what i'm talking about! you need a chimera PLUS ogryns and usually should have at least commissars or plasma guns on your guardsmen. so the ig just wasted enormous amounts of power. there is also a big chance that you'll find a setup team behind the dread to cover it. i think most sm's build at least one vs ig on t1

to 2:
dreads and ogryns almost cost the same but ogryns are not immune to knockback, supression and do not force the opponent to build anti vehicle weapons. i personally think tankbusters are absolutely awesome. they are dirt cheap, have a very good range and that crazy barrage. if you hide them in a wartrukk (also very cheap) to avoid the barrage, they should kill a dreadnought i think - and it won't cost much power.

i really think ogryns need to be cheaper on t2 and get a t3 upgrade that makes them more durable and supression immun during their charge. i don't think it will be op at all. i mean, especially chaos got so many new units and upgrades/abilities like melta raptors, termies, phobos and so on and everybody's fine with it - so why is an ogryn t3 upgrade or a cost reduction on t2 (like many people have wished to see for years) such a big deal?

[Tex]

Ogryns require hero support. They are not a stand alone unit.

Ogryns are meh when they are used as a stand alone unit.

Ogryns are boss mode when they get hero support.



.....

[Tex]

I actually just remembered being successful with Ogryns against Noisy's warboss. I can't find it right now, but I know for sure it was casted. I remember that game being a great example of how ogryns can go apeshit if you support them well.

[Sub_Zero]

Although I can imagine what support you imply, such logic still feels kinda wrong. Every single unit if there is some support available will perform better than it would without support. And I don't feel like that ogryns are bad on their own. Still that knockback of theirs and increased speed allow them to deal easily with melee/ranged units. My main issue with them is the injust cost of reinforcements. If it was decreased a little bit I would be more than happy.

[Cyris]

Another big strength of ogryns is that they force plasma/power damage purchases to counter, a damage type that deals reduced damage to the masses of infantry IG fields and distracts resources from AOE, AV or CC purchases. Sents do this to a lesser degree, and while melee does a decent job against Ogryns, when's the last time you went heavy melee to deal with IG It's the same as when I play GK and pop out a Rhino in T2 - T2.5. It doesn't NEED to get much done, but it will force AV purchases for my opponenet, and I'm never making another vehicle for the rest of the game. Depending on the race you are against, those AV purchases might be complete wastes once the Rhino is gone (or if I just play real cautious with it) and drain upkeep / pop from my enemy.

Yes, of course there are some purchases that serve double duty (pdev, suppression teams, artillery) but at the end of the day it is a tool for forcing your opponent to modify their build order away from what they would ideally want to deal with massed humans with flashlights. With the right pre-planning they can really swing a game, and when supported well they are wrecking balls with AV.

To reiterate my initial post, I do think they could use small buffs in a vacuum, but the IG roster is one of the strongest in the game. Buffing a slightly under-preforming unit, especially one that represents such a gear shift in threats the IG can propose, is really dangerous.

[saltychipmunk]

Another big strength of ogryns is that they force plasma/power damage purchases to counter, a damage type that deals reduced damage to the masses of infantry IG fields and distracts resources from AOE, AV or CC purchases. Sents do this to a lesser degree, and while melee does a decent job against Ogryns, when's the last time you went heavy melee to deal with IG It's the same as when I play GK and pop out a Rhino in T2 - T2.5. It doesn't NEED to get much done, but it will force AV purchases for my opponent, and I'm never making another vehicle for the rest of the game. Depending on the race you are against, those AV purchases might be complete wastes once the Rhino is gone (or if I just play real cautious with it) and drain upkeep / pop from my enemy.

Yes, of course there are some purchases that serve double duty (pdev, suppression teams, artillery) but at the end of the day it is a tool for forcing your opponent to modify their build order away from what they would ideally want to deal with massed humans with flashlights. With the right pre-planning they can really swing a game, and when supported well they are wrecking balls with AV.

it is a little more than some, infact that "some" you mentioned kinda out numbers the "everything else" there really aren't that many upgrades that are just good vs heavy infantry .

infact the only one i can outright pull from the top of my head is the actual plasma gun upgrade (and its various versions throughout the races) .

but even then that particular upgrade has context to consider. such as it coming with an ability (like for ist/ techmarine) , being the only t2 weapon upgrade (guardsmen) .

really only the plasmagun on tacs can be considered an out right resource waste vs infantry. and considering how stupidly expensive t2+ melee units like kcsm , purifiers and ogryns especially are. i think the tacs can take a hit or just go sterns.


pretty much every power melee or melee heavy weapon does enough damage over the base weapons to be considered a worth upgrade vs infantry

inferno weapons while not explicitly good vs infantry aren't exactly a massive disadvantages either since their dps is till pretty darn high.

most explosive weapons have aoe and most light infantry have more models..


now one thing ogryns are good for is punishing players that have front loaded a overly specialized build. obnoxious stuff like say 3 fully upgraded shootaboys , or 4 guardians something stupidly overkill on the anti light infantry role. then they shine. but you can also that is a hell those spammy players brought on themselves ....

[Adeptus Noobus]

Ogryns require hero support. They are not a stand alone unit.

Ogryns are meh when they are used as a stand alone unit.

Ogryns are boss mode when they get hero support.
.....

This is what it comes down to.

Sneaky Ogryns? No problem - Interrogators from the Inquisitor which gives her the infiltrate ability.
Unsuppressable faster than light Ogryns? We got that shit covered too - Carapace armor and Grenade Launcher on the Lord General. Get the Sergeant to distribute a Medkit to them and they can heal themselves too.
Inspirational buffs needed? Let me quickly load my pistol and waste a fool - speed, damage, suppression immunity, the Lord Commissar is you best friend. And he can heal them on the field with the Aura of discipline, hell, even immortal with the Fist of Brockus.

This is not a game where you send your units somewhere alone expecting them to solo other stuff. Expect them to be met by a force which will require unit/ability synergy to break and overcome.

[saltychipmunk]

that much is a given for pretty much any unit though. synergy is kind of the name of the game after all. the question is... are the ogyrns too expensive to facilitate said synergy reasonably?

and I am thinking .. yes , yes they are. not by much, but they are definitely a unit that i think to my self , i would love to use these .... but i can get so many other things for that price. and alot of things need to line up to make them work for you because of that price

[Lichtbringer]

Many people say that they are kinda walkers but with the disatvantages of Infantry (bleed).
And yes, buffs synergyze and work with everything. Oh wait, no they don't. Most of them don't affect walkers.
So yes, the buffs and commanders synergize especially good with Ogrins. Add that to the fact that ogrins have strong defined weaknesses that get countered by those buffs and you have a hell of a synergy.

[Tex]

Ever thought to yourself, "perhaps those other things are a bit too good?"

Plasma guardsmen are so tough when fully upgraded that they are legitimate light AV.
Stormtroopers or manticore... do I really need to say more?

I totally get the fact that Ogryn reinforce price is absolutely crippling. The point missed (perhaps?) is that when ogryns are used well with HERO SYNERGY (yes, I'll say it again because its a very specific truth) they become an undeniable force. Surely if you drop a model or two, you should be punished economically right? What I'm seeing mostly, whether written or implied, is that Ogryns are already, or are easily countered: IE suppression or plasma. Once the hero synergy comes into play, and with proper flanking, these things literally don't even factor in.

I think a bunch of stuff was already listed, but just consider:

-invisible ogryns
step 1) cast invisibility
step 2) position ogryns next to capping unit
step 3) troll capping unit with knockback charge, and likely wipe unit as it tries to retreat but can't until it stands up

-inquisitorial mandate ahead of ogryns
step 1) cast it, run in and draw fire
step 2) tie up the most annoying thing for your ogryns
step 3) laugh as your opponent tries to stop you
step 4) steam roll other shit with ogryns

-excruciatingly protected ogryns
step 1) cast on melee squad or hero intended to counter ogryns
step 2) completely ignore said squad and steam roll opponent's infantry
step 3) pew pew counter squad and force them to fight ogryns on much less favorable terms

And I mean, the list goes on and on. That's just the inquisitor's super combo stuff. She also has holy pyre which makes ogryns win melee fights that they aren't supposed to win. There's also the fact that the banewolf snares vehicles so it allows ogryns to snap up transports with ease.

And just a last thought, spotters are really cheap. If you dare to make ogryns, don't you think they would be a pretty good follow up purchase for the counters that are surely on their way? Just a thought...

[enasni127]

This is what it comes down to.

Sneaky Ogryns? No problem - Interrogators from the Inquisitor which gives her the infiltrate ability.

sounds good but won't work often cause there's always an aspiring champion, scout sarge, catachans and so on around. most detectors in this games are just commanders of standard units that you'll find in always every match.

Unsuppressable faster than light Ogryns? We got that shit covered too - Carapace armor and Grenade Launcher on the Lord General. Get the Sergeant to distribute a Medkit to them and they can heal themselves too.

costs lots of money and the nade launcher is often a far worse choice than the sniper rifle. you basically trade fast ogryns against a working firing line. carapace armor is ofcourse always a good idea. the medkit works much better on squads with higher model count cause it doesn't heal XXXhp but restores 100hp PER squad member. 400HP are nice to have though

Inspirational buffs needed? Let me quickly load my pistol and waste a fool - speed, damage, suppression immunity, the Lord Commissar is you best friend. And he can heal them on the field with the Aura of discipline, hell, even immortal with the Fist of Brockus.

for some stupid reason it hits the bone'ead most of the time and I mean like in 8/10 cases. This costs you alot of money, disables your strongest model AND makes you lose your charge PLUS the benefits of inspire determination (hope it's the right name) were nerfed in elite mode.

This is not a game where you send your units somewhere alone expecting them to solo other stuff. Expect them to be met by a force which will require unit/ability synergy to break and overcome.

i think IG players know about that fact more than any other race in this game. I don't think there are factions that are more dependant on troop synergy than IG


You have your points and they are legitime but there's one major point which I'd like to complain about: All these hero abilities aren't made for ogryns and so shouldn't affect ogryn changes. They work for all IG units and some, even none shall fall, also affect your allies. So if you change something or if something is very strong it will be the wargear and not the ogrnys.
I can't come along and say Terminators are crazy op cause there might be a Battle Cry FC around or a Dreadnought that just killed some stuff or they don't need changes cause the Apothecary can heal them.
I also think the Chaos Dreadnought isn't op or doesn't need changes just cause the Sorcerer can teleport them out of combat - the problem is not the dread (or ogryns!) it's the abilities you use on them.

[Sub_Zero]

FC teleports to enemy positions, ties up dangerous ranged units then counters his counters with the hammer. ASM jump and ruin any ranged unit.

Apo uses stimulators on ASM, they jump on ranged units, then counter their counters because the heal will also cause knockback (purification rites).

Techmarine has a beacon. ASM jump, cause knockback, then when things get worse for them they just retreat and TM decimates everything at range (mark target, specific weapon) and here comes the second jump from ASM.

I don't see where this logic is going ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Then we perhaps must make ASM more expensive when they reach T2 and get their leader because listed by me things make them an undeniable force as well? Indeed ogryns having that heavy melee damage can engage anything and truly become an undeniable force whereas ASM will only dominate ranged units if heroes do everything right. I just look at any cost, consider this unit's performance and conclude that the cost is justified or not. I would drop power cost for reinforcement from 15 to 12 and be done with it. Nothing radical and not really a minor change at the same time.

And here is what forgotten here. Counter-tactics aren't listed at all. But if we are going to do that then things will just be super complex (MU balance is what we must aspire to but that is really an impossible goal). I am for looking at units strictly and their possible synergies with other units and all that with accordance to costs. If we add heroes and then add counter-tactics then just good luck, just good luck.

A simple example comes to mind. A pair of units - one unit suppresses and the other one protects the first unit. Two pairs - scouts with shotguns + devs and heretics + havocs. The melee resistance on devs is needed because scouts don't do shit to units that are in melee combat (50% damage reduction), scouts don't get that reduction because they stand and fire their guns (can be quickly forced off by enemy ranged units), scouts' ability doesn't allow them to RIGHT AWAY (3 seconds and then only can be used to its maximal effect) make any unit attack scouts (and thereby allow the unit they defend to slip away unhampered), piercing damage don't do shit to heavy armoured jump units. Havocs don't need this melee resistance aura whatsoever since heretics do full damage to most attacking units (only SHI will receive decreased damage), heretics are protected by 50% damage reduction since they are in melee too, heretics RIGHT AWAY force any unit to engage them because they start dealing high damage with their weapons as well as immediately delivering that damage of the doom blast and it also suppresses.

That is how I see balance. And that is why IMO this very balance is RUINED big time because of mentioned by me factors. Now go ahead and bring heroes to even more complicate that (and I tell what - if we add heroes this decision will look even worse because Chaos heroes are more potent at counter-initiation) and don't forget about counter-strategies.

[Dark Riku]

Unsuppressable faster than light Ogryns? We got that shit covered too - Carapace armor and Grenade Launcher on the Lord General. Get the Sergeant to distribute a Medkit to them and they can heal themselves too.

costs lots of money

And you think their counters don't?

for some stupid reason it hits the bone'ead most of the time and I mean like in 8/10 cases. This costs you alot of money, disables your strongest model AND makes you lose your charge PLUS the benefits of inspire determination (hope it's the right name) were nerfed in elite mode.

That reason is you then, you select what model to hit yourself!
It was nerfed because it was bat shit insane -.-

[saltychipmunk]

Unsuppressable faster than light Ogryns? We got that shit covered too - Carapace armor and Grenade Launcher on the Lord General. Get the Sergeant to distribute a Medkit to them and they can heal themselves too.

costs lots of money

And you think their counters don't?

I think a more interesting question would be "do you think the counters aren't already present"? Ogryns are still infantry at the end of the day, yes they have super heavy infantry armor but they behave like infantry.

they get knocked back like infantry, they get suppressed like infantry and a ton of their counters would, again, be something that would be useful for countering the rest of the ig lineup.

it is one thing to build a dread and force a player to buy a las setup unit or a rocket unit, it is another completely to make an opponent equip power weapons , inferno damage or something they were probably going to use against your guardsmen anyway....


it is not like i am buying an ogryns counter unit to counter ogryns.

[Crewfinity]

That may be true, but I think Tex touched on some key points about hero support. Those synergies are things you can't get with walkers, and it completely addresses the points you mention. Yes ogryns are infantry, but with hero support they can be immune to knock back or suppression, infiltrate, or otherwise get around any infantry counters the opponent is fielding. With proper hero support this unit can be amazing, whether there are infantry counters present or not

[Tex]

That may be true, but I think Tex touched on some key points about hero support. Those synergies are things you can't get with walkers, and it completely addresses the points you mention. Yes ogryns are infantry, but with hero support they can be immune to knock back or suppression, infiltrate, or otherwise get around any infantry counters the opponent is fielding. With proper hero support this unit can be amazing, whether there are infantry counters present or not

Save for:
-blessing of the omnisiah
-Knob stun bomb (doesn't affect vehicles so can disable heavy squad attacking walker)
-Maybe a couple more less obvious ones (etc)

Either way, I appreciate you seeing the point.

Ogryns have a higher skill ceiling than walkers. When used poorly or used like walkers, they perform worse than walkers at the same cost. When used in an optimal manner, they will dominate the periphery of any battlefield.

[Bahamut]

Just FYI, i dont think the OP was addressing to ogrym performance but rather ogrym pricing

[saltychipmunk]

That may be true, but I think Tex touched on some key points about hero support. Those synergies are things you can't get with walkers, and it completely addresses the points you mention. Yes ogryns are infantry, but with hero support they can be immune to knock back or suppression, infiltrate, or otherwise get around any infantry counters the opponent is fielding. With proper hero support this unit can be amazing, whether there are infantry counters present or not

his explanation is also limited to abilities that directly affect them though , sure dreads only get repair really for synergy but because they are so stand alone it means you can focus on other areas to support it.

and really the big thing to worry about is the av which tends to be limited to a single unit. you can even say dreads are simpler to support because of it . tie up the av .. profit.

in away you justifying them and their price based on the presence of abilities and upgrades that may or may not be there. i can accept that as a good reason to not buff their stats . but any unit can achieve good results when you put enough money behind them. but that money needs to come from somewhere.

so yeah money issue again.

[Adeptus Noobus]

Just FYI, i dont think the OP was addressing to ogrym performance but rather ogrym pricing

Well, they are somewhat related. You can't discuss one without the other.

[saltychipmunk]

True, but we should not lose sight that this thread is ultimately about money, and not so much about performance . as listed in earlier posts
there are ways to make ogryns good as there are ways to make many units for many races good.

The issue is that the current pricing of ogryns makes this sort of synergy more difficult to pull off than need be. I don't think anyone particularly wants a massive cost decrease or a massive buff to stats. but still something as small as just shaving like 10 -15 power off of them. Dont even need to touch the req costs.


I have always been of the opinion that conventional melee units with a heavy power cost like ogryns , purifiers , and yes even nobs were always pretty power heavy for what they are on paper. but again, this would be minor cost inefficiencies rather than the unit not performing in their intended roles . They arent like say kcsm or other transitioning t1 melee units. they are essentially t1 melee units with better stats and a better damage type that you have to buy on top of your current army when you get down too it. And while I again will not argue that when they work .. they really do work , that heavy power cost is always something looming over their heads.

it is .. clunky.

[enasni127]

True, but we should not lose sight that this thread is ultimately about money, and not so much about performance . as listed in earlier posts
there are ways to make ogryns good as there are ways to make many units for many races good.

The issue is that the current pricing of ogryns makes this sort of synergy more difficult to pull off than need be. I don't think anyone particularly wants a massive cost decrease or a massive buff to stats. but still something as small as just shaving like 10 -15 power off of them. Dont even need to touch the req costs.


I have always been of the opinion that conventional melee units with a heavy power cost like ogryns , purifiers , and yes even nobs were always pretty power heavy for what they are on paper. but again, this would be minor cost inefficiencies rather than the unit not performing in their intended roles . They arent like say kcsm or other transitioning t1 melee units. they are essentially t1 melee units with better stats and a better damage type that you have to buy on top of your current army when you get down too it. And while I again will not argue that when they work .. they really do work , that heavy power cost is always something looming over their heads.

it is .. clunky.

yep, I think 425/75 for the squad and 90/20 for the bone'ead would be by far more reasonable.



@ other posters:

In generell I still think it's and invalid argument to say they are too good cause they can be buffed by commanders for following reasons:

1. commanders can buff ALL units, not only ogryns - so if this point is valid all units of all factions will need a cost increase!?

2. you pay for the wargear and I think the cost of the wargear should justify its benefit. If something is just too good then just increase the wargear's cost or nerf/change it.

3. you can have only 1 of 3 commanders per match. i think this is the most important point. you just can't use all of these buffs in each game - cause it's commander related and not an ogryn issue.

I mean, everyone knows how absolutely good Guardsmen are with a chimera next to them and still they don't cost 500/150 or something like that

[Dark Riku]

1. commanders can buff ALL units, not only ogryns - so if this point is valid all units of all factions will need a cost increase!?

Nobody is asking for a cost increase.
Heroes are not able to buff all units and even if they were able to, this point makes no sense.
Units should now suddenly cost more because of the synergies between heroes and units that were designed to be in place from the start? °_O

I feel like you're missing the point completely on said argument.

[saltychipmunk]

But that could also be because said argument , while having many good points to it, is not really addressing the core issue.

it is like someone complaining about a 40 dollar burger being 40 dollars and then having someone else answer their complaint with "oh don't worry it is good once you put bbq sauce , cheese , onions, special spices, relish and lettuce on it".

Again those things would definitely make any burger taste better.. but it still does not change the fact that it is a 40 dollar burger. And i am positive i can buy a bunch of cheaper burgers , put the same toppings on them and have a good result too.. and get more bang for my dollar.

you can buy a ton of upgrade burgers for the price of 1 ogryn burger

[Tex]

I have been using ogryns in every single match since I started reading this thread.

I completely disagree that they underperform.

With LC support for a small fee of 100-20, they become outrageous damage sponges in T2 that can fight anything.
With LG support they become shocktroops with so many different types of benefits that you don't even know what will win a fight against them, again, in T2.
With Inq support they become terrors on the periphery of the battlefield.

I mean, at this point, go ahead, change the cost to 425-75 and reduce bone 'ead price. I'm just going to use ogryns that much more.

I feel like in about 10-15 more games, I will have reached a very high level of efficiency with my ogryn use, and I will have more moments like the one I just had this morning where I effectively fought and distracted an entire army without losing a single ogryn. My big boys didn't kill much more than a few shootas, but my backline completely overpowered and pushed back the ork mob because they simply couldn't push my ogryns away.

[Adeptus Noobus]

If you had a replay so everyone could benefit from your experience, that would be awesome.

[Forestradio]

If you had a replay

a what?

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9821269

[Cyris]

I'd love to see you try Purifiers out next Tex. Every now and then they work out for me, but they don't seem to bring anything unique enough to the table. They are often too similar to SS to mess with enemy composition weaknesses, they require some expensive support investments to buff up (Libby, staff, sword etc) and represent a large amount of T2 cash not being spent on AV (which is a big problem considering GKs lack of transitional AV). The only success I've had was inspired by Forest: use them as a finishing move if you crushed face in T1.

By contast, I'm not at all surprised to see you crushing face with Ogryns (we should do some matches). It's 2000 hp of SHI with heavy melee in T2 on a race of light infantry and vehicles. I think a lot of the Ogryn hate comes from 3v3 games where melee in generally weaker then 1v1.

[KanKrusha]

No one has mentioned the IG Tier one economy, especially in relation to power. I think this is pretty important. IG still go into tier two having spent not much power. Plus if i somehow manage to tank my power economy I can buy power free Storm troopers while accumulating the power to upgrade them. All the non-SS units for IG tier 2 are really power expensive because of the economy, changed slightly but not completely from retail, A $40 burger is not always a $40 burger.

[Tex]

If you had a replay

a what?

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9821269

This replay is completely disheartening lol.

Obviously I need to learn how to build heavy weapons teams against your ranged blo.... oh wait... LA...