Some questions about Imperial Guard

[Oddnerd]

I have been mostly playing Imperial Guard recently and had a few questions that I wanted to run by the community.

1 - Storm troopers and Kasrkins
There seems to be a lot of redundancy between these two. I know that the kasrkins are stronger and have better weapon options, but of course the storm troopers have infiltrate which IG need. What do experienced IG players think about these two units?... are they sufficiently different from one another?... would you like to see them merged into one unit and have a new unit instead? Also, would giving them faster point capture/decapture be a fair way to encourage using them as stealthy, objective capturing units?

2 - Hot-shot Lasguns
I see that these have the fairly basic piercing damage type. I know this game isn't a direct translation of tabletop, but the whole point of hot-shot lasguns is to be a short range, anti-heavy infantry alternative to standard lasguns. In tabletop 40K a hot shot lasgun packs the same punch as a lasgun, but pierces space marine power armour. What are your thoughts on changing hot-shot lasgun damage to something that is highly effective against heavy infantry armour?

3 - Artillery Spotter Squads
I love this unit, they are the most needed/most creative addition made to Elite mod IMO. One thing I think they are missing is detection. I know catachans have detection and that it might be excessive for IG to have two units with detection at T1 but, of the two, I think the spotters are better suited to it. Detection seems to be a better fit with the pure support role of the spotter unit (and just from a pure fluff/flavour perspective, the spotter unit seems to make more sense).

4 - Sentinels
Long shot here, very hypothetical, what are your thoughts on giving sentinels a melee attack? They do have it in tabletop 40K (presumably they try stepping on infantry). It wouldn't be very strong or fast, but it would tie down a ranged unit. Again, not something I feel strongly about but wanted to hear opinions on.

Also with sentinels, do you think it would be fair to give a T2 upgrade which turns sentinels into vehicles? If I recall, rhinos have this. They melt like butter in the late game, and an upgrade that made them into vehicles would improve their chances of surviving. I know I mention tabletop too often, but as of the newest edition, sentinels come in light and armoured form, so there is some fluff basis for this upgrade.

[Dullahan]

Karskins are overpowered bullshit IG didn't need at all. The only role they serve is adding one more SUPER DUPER RANGED DPS unit to the mod and making team games a clusterfuck of dakka.

Hot shot las guns work well the way they are imo. Do plenty of damage to space marines and anything else. Reworking it is more trouble than it's worth.

Sentinel has half-radius detection unless it was removed. IG doesn't really need more. (I also hate Spotters...)

Not possible to really give Sentinel a melee attack, even if it were it'd be super cheesy. The way the sentinel's lack of attrition is balanced right now is that it has to be repaired. Letting it melee means it could solo guardians or whatever while still bleeding them.

[enasni127]

Karskins are overpowered bullshit IG didn't need at all. The only role they serve is adding one more SUPER DUPER RANGED DPS unit to the mod and making team games a clusterfuck of dakka.

WHAT?! kasrkin are ultra-shit and very bad imo. they have lower dps than hotshot stormtroopers, die instant to many abilities and usually you don't need them on t3 - you will usually just build a leman russ.

some people say they use kasrkin to replace fallen guardsmen squad but that's bad cause you are already t3, could build vehicles and so NEED guardsmen to repair your tanks. this is why i replace guardsmen with guardsmen and buff my dps on t2 by building storm troopers. kasrking WERE good many patches ago but now they die like flies, cost alot and do shit damage - i'd really call them a bad design and not needed the way they are.

[Sub_Zero]

1 - Storm troopers and Kasrkins

I would love to see the following distinction between these three arguably similar units. In short - gm are your frontline base units (the way they are), st are your specialists (the way they are) and kasrkin should be a very unique unit and powerful unit (not the way they are).
I would completely remove any special gun upgrades. I would reduce their availability - only 1 squad per player. I would drastically increase their cost. And to compensate that I would design them around this saying - "When veteran Guardsmen flee, the Kasrkin stand. When victory is near, the Kasrkin seize it. When the Archenemy attacks, the Kasrkin Elite are the rock upon which traitors shall break." I would describe in detail my thoughts about their design but that I will do in a separate thread. For now I just want to say that they are really bad and aren't worth to be ever purchased anymore.

2 - Hot-shot Lasguns

They definitely need not to cause additional hurt for HI races. Guardsmen and HWTs are painfully sufficient for that. Though I think that they have to get their 40% range increase back that comes with the upgrade, now it is 20% for some strange and undocumented reason.

3 - Artillery Spotter Squads

I love this unit, they are the most needed/most creative addition made to Elite mod IMO. - exactly my thought. But I disagree with the rest. If we make them detectors as well then there will be 3 detectors per tier. But I really like catachans as detectors since it helps them to be the best loner squad and if they lose that (they will have to lose that if spotters are to become detectors, otherwise it is gonna be broken) they will not be as effective against enemy's infiltrated units that may be sent to capture certain portions of map that catachans secure.

4 - Sentinels

Can't really say anything about a possible melee attack but I may consider giving this unit a better armor type in later tiers. If not vehicle armor then super-heavy armor might become an option in T3 if your sentinel lives to that point (may become like a single terminator, be as effective against piercing units). Vehicle armor? I again don't really know, it would require some testing since a T2 sentinel is essentially a tank but a better functioning one (100% reliability on the move - no shots are wasted, cannon's rotation is not existent)

[saltychipmunk]

Karskins are overpowered bullshit IG didn't need at all. The only role they serve is adding one more SUPER DUPER RANGED DPS unit to the mod and making team games a clusterfuck of dakka.

LOL. we playing the same game? in terms of "super ranged dps" ..... i dont even have kasrkins in the top 10.

You must also think that flash gits were op too.

[Toilailee]

Now now let's not lose our heads here...

[saltychipmunk]

Now now let's not lose our heads here...

Ok fine , still the thought of kaskrins being an op ranged spam seems silly.
They do no more or less damage than other armies. They dont even have the best spike damage.

It has always confused me how people have complained that these t3 ranged units are the crem of the crem of cheesy ranged spam.
Warpsiders have been owning that role for years.

And i still cant fathom why they were hit with such a brutal popcap nerf.

[Oddnerd]

Karskins are overpowered bullshit IG didn't need at all. The only role they serve is adding one more SUPER DUPER RANGED DPS unit to the mod and making team games a clusterfuck of dakka.

You really have drank the space marine kool-aid. This game degenerates into a micro-free nightmare around T3 because of terminators, global nukes, and ultimate units, not because of a slightly-improved storm trooper squad. Kasrkins are one of a few T3 units in this that don't completely ruin the COH feeling of this game.

[Atlas]

Ok, first off let's all admit that no matter what, 3v3 games always devolve into giant clusterfucks usually of the ranged variety. If you're really tired of that, play 1v1 and 2v2.

On to the questions;

1)

I've played enough IG to tell you that Kasrkin are definitely not bad units. They used to be completely insane-balls op before they got their dps pattern and upkeep nerfed but they still are viable. I will concede that they have to compete with russes however, but that doesn't make them useless. They work best when outfitted with grenade launchers imo, as long ranged disruption is a role that isn't filled by the rest of the IG army.

The reason they got a huge upkeep nerf was because before that, they had the same upkeep as guardsman. That means that fielding a Kasrkin squad was actually cheaper on your economy than your starting guardsman squad. It's been roughly tripled now and that is a well deserved nerf. As a side note, 20% range bonus for AKST is just fine because if it goes to 40% I honestly think it outranges artillery teams O.o

You buy Stormtroopers for their potent AV (stop laughing they can work) and for their infiltration/range. Kasrkin are more about being a somewhat hardy, sustained fighter whereas Storms have 0 toughness and drop like flies even faster than guardsman imo.

2)

Off the top of my head, only inferno, plasma or psychic damage would fit that bill and neither of them make sense. AKST still do plenty of damage as is and their grenade out of infiltration can put enough of a hurt on HI that they should be fine. IG is not hurting for anti-HI in any way imo.

3)

In a bit of trivia, Spotters actually WERE detectors for a while. They actually aren't very good detectors though because their role usually puts them too far back in your lines to actually be of use detecting enemy stealth units. The Catachans and Sentinel coverage should be good enough for you as both are either with your army, or in the Catachan case, can solo without getting swamped by some horrible stealth melee threat.

4)

I always joked about sentinels getting little T-Rex arms to slap things with, but honestly it would make them super op imo. The main benefit to it would be being able to tie up setup teams, whereas you only have the stomp to disrupt them with atm. Plus it also really clashes from a design standpoint with the ranged focus IG T1.

As for a vehicle upgrade, maybe. Sents are one of those units that are super good early on, but become relegated to support later on. That doesn't really mean that they're bad units, but the Rhino is different in that it's not very good early but scales much better later. Feels like comparing tomatoes to potatoes there.

[bibotot]

Karskins, while I hate them because they add nothing new to the Guards (more bodies, more firepower, not much resilience), I would get them after I have a Leman Russ. Because Dawn of War 2 has terrible pathing for vehicles, only 1 Leman Russ is recommended.

Stormtroopers are in tier 2 and they are very decent. Hotshot lasguns in tabletop is the reason why I will sneer at those Astra Militarum players who bring this crap to the table before wiping them off with my 2+ armor Grey Knights. It is the single worst design of the game and one of the reasons why Astra Militarum has the absolute worst Codex right now. However, I really love the way it translates into the video game. With Assault Kit, the range can be ridiculous, more so if you have a Lord General with Sniper Rifle. I always get 2 of them in tier 2.

Artillery Spotters hit me in the wrong spot. This unit have nothing to do with the tabletop game and should be the Tau Pathfinders instead. I would like them to be changed into Rangers or something, with stealth and mark target ability.

The Sentinel's melee attack is translated into the stomping ability. I am fine with what it is right now. Except for the fact it takes way too much friendly fire. Never put this in front of an allied HMG.

[Forestradio]

the general consensus is that if a unit can't cap, it's balanced

therefore, all units with the ability to cap are clearly in a questionable state and should be evaluated carefully

kasrkin (along with tactical marines and kommandos) have the ability to capture points faster than any other unit in the game, so all three of these units need some serious nerfs

HOWEVER

kasrkin can frag grenade themselves, and kommandos can burna bomb themselves. tactical marines can't kraken bolt or and they shall know fear themselves...

so clearly tactical marines are the most imbalanced unit still left in the game

[bibotot]

the general consensus is that if a unit can't cap, it's balanced

therefore, all units with the ability to cap are clearly in a questionable state and should be evaluated carefully

kasrkin (along with tactical marines and kommandos) have the ability to capture points faster than any other unit in the game, so all three of these units need some serious nerfs

HOWEVER

kasrkin can frag grenade themselves, and kommandos can burna bomb themselves. tactical marines can't kraken bolt or and they shall know fear themselves...

so clearly tactical marines are the most imbalanced unit still left in the game

Do karskins actually cap points faster? I never notice.

[bibotot]

the general consensus is that if a unit can't cap, it's balanced

therefore, all units with the ability to cap are clearly in a questionable state and should be evaluated carefully

kasrkin (along with tactical marines and kommandos) have the ability to capture points faster than any other unit in the game, so all three of these units need some serious nerfs

HOWEVER

kasrkin can frag grenade themselves, and kommandos can burna bomb themselves. tactical marines can't kraken bolt or and they shall know fear themselves...

so clearly tactical marines are the most imbalanced unit still left in the game

Do karskins actually cap points faster? I never notice. And wait, if Tactical Marines cannot And They Shall Know no Fear themselves, who are they using it on?

[Dark Riku]

The Kasrkinsergeant gives the faster capping trait.

[Dullahan]

Karskins are overpowered bullshit IG didn't need at all. The only role they serve is adding one more SUPER DUPER RANGED DPS unit to the mod and making team games a clusterfuck of dakka.

WHAT?! kasrkin are ultra-shit and very bad imo. they have lower dps than hotshot stormtroopers, die instant to many abilities and usually you don't need them on t3 - you will usually just build a leman russ.

some people say they use kasrkin to replace fallen guardsmen squad but that's bad cause you are already t3, could build vehicles and so NEED guardsmen to repair your tanks. this is why i replace guardsmen with guardsmen and buff my dps on t2 by building storm troopers. kasrking WERE good many patches ago but now they die like flies, cost alot and do shit damage - i'd really call them a bad design and not needed the way they are.

When I did the math on their DPS about a year or two ago they did something insane like 130 DPS for a 5 man squad. For comparison a default guardian squad is around 40 DPS. Perhaps it got changed since then, I've been away awhile. Either way the mod is absolutely chock full of more shooting squads (Karskins, Dark Reapers, GK stormtroopers, fire dragons etc) it didn't need and it makes 3v3 utterly boring to play these days because everyone rolls around in a big ball of shooting squads while they tech up for super units.

[Bahamut]

that was like 5 patches ago... they dont have that dps anymore

[enasni127]

Karskins are overpowered bullshit IG didn't need at all. The only role they serve is adding one more SUPER DUPER RANGED DPS unit to the mod and making team games a clusterfuck of dakka.

WHAT?! kasrkin are ultra-shit and very bad imo. they have lower dps than hotshot stormtroopers, die instant to many abilities and usually you don't need them on t3 - you will usually just build a leman russ.

some people say they use kasrkin to replace fallen guardsmen squad but that's bad cause you are already t3, could build vehicles and so NEED guardsmen to repair your tanks. this is why i replace guardsmen with guardsmen and buff my dps on t2 by building storm troopers. kasrking WERE good many patches ago but now they die like flies, cost alot and do shit damage - i'd really call them a bad design and not needed the way they are.

When I did the math on their DPS about a year or two ago they did something insane like 130 DPS for a 5 man squad. For comparison a default guardian squad is around 40 DPS. Perhaps it got changed since then, I've been away awhile. Either way the mod is absolutely chock full of more shooting squads (Karskins, Dark Reapers, GK stormtroopers, fire dragons etc) it didn't need and it makes 3v3 utterly boring to play these days because everyone rolls around in a big ball of shooting squads while they tech up for super units.

feel free to do that again, you'll be astonished how worthless they are now.

[Dark Riku]

Then after reading the post above and trying them out properly you'll notice they are not worthless.

[Sub_Zero]

Worthless is a big word. Nothing is really worthless, even barrels! Underwhelming? - if we consider their cost and tier position. That they are.