What is with the Grey Knights hate?

[bibotot]

I went to public games and saw a bunch of host putting 3v3 no GK on it. As a Grey Knight player on the tabletop, I understand the hate. But here as well? What the heck?

Is this because of the retreating Terminators?

[DandyFrontline]

Personally i dont like lot's of GK units to play against but that's okay. What i really hate is to play against GK t3. SHI stop's GK bleeding, require no micro, and really hard to counter. I mean, paladins + termies + Bro Captain makes my ass burn. Also, now they can teleport -> kick ass -> retreat. But, they got a CD for retreat 5 minutes so they can use it only like 2 times in the game but still. Personally i think retreat should be totally removed and GK SHI totally reworked.

[Oddnerd]

They are an army that is conducive to minimal-micro, spam gameplay.

[Crewfinity]

They are an army that is conducive to minimal-micro, spam gameplay.

0_o

with no suppression teams or jump squads in T1, i would argue that they're actually a fairly micro-intensive race. ops and IST both require heavy micro to perform optimally and the general playstyle in T1 is much more micro-heavy than it used to be.
T2 has no good spammy units, most units are high-micro (libby, purifiers, vindicare).

GK terminators have always been strong, but can easily be anticipated and the lack of battle tanks makes it much less flexible than other factions. their retreat functionality is now much more like the sorcerer's warp global in that they have an escape mechanism that can only rarely be used.

They're strong in team games, but other factions have tons of their own bullshit to deal with them.
In 1v1 they have a couple of standout units but in general they scale poorly into T2, and struggle to deal with massed melee in T1 and fast vehicles in T2.

In general, the GK playstyle changed up a lot this last patch. ops and paladins were intially overbuffed and GK got a lot of flak for it, but with the newer changes I dont think that they're deserving of any hate that they get. once you put in some hours playing with or against them you can pick up how the changes affected them and react appropriately. I think a good amount of their hate has died away since time has passed and people have indeed gotten more accustomed to playing around the new power spikes and vulnerabilities of the faction.

ex last patch mass melee against GK got shut down very hard by purgations. with them moving to T2, a nid player can get double hormagaunts and double warriors, and use them to gain an overwhelming advantage in T1 to close out the game early.

another example: before the rhino was almost impossible for chaos to kill in T1, and could immediately transition into the lascannon to snipe CSM models and counter vehicles. now with its reduced performance in T1 and no purgation squad to taxi to the gen farms, its much rarer to see it in the matchup, so the chaos player can get a bloodcrusher followed by bloodletters and press an early T2 advantage where they couldn't have before.

[Cyris]

They are an army that is conducive to minimal-micro, spam gameplay.

I invite you to try playing as GK some time, particularly in 1v1 against some of the compositions Crew mentioned. I think you will find that they are actually average to high on the micro requirement scale (Eldar and IG being near the top imo). Especially come T2, GK rely on a number of different skills that can miss (skill-shots to use moba terms) and have a decent number of units that take a lot of micro baby-sitting to use optimally (VA, las-rhino, Ops, libby). Also, what unit would you say is "spammed" exactly?

I think there are reasonable arguments to be made that their T3 is a bit strong in 3v3 due to the economics of team games. But you're just throwing around hyperbole now. Which is too bad, I thought your IG post was really interesting. I'm sad that the first response was flame, and sad to see you bringing that hate with you here.

As for GK hate in general, it started as GK became viable. Instead of learning how to counter them, some people decided to complain and ban. It's fear of change mixed with laziness of learning.

[Kvn]

From what I understand, a lot of the hate for GK comes with their late game. I haven't played against them all that much, so I can't vouch one way or the other in terms of balance, but I know that they can be incredibly difficult and frustrating to play against in certain matchups.

In the early game, they're fairly evenly matched with most races. The Bro Captain is tanky as heck, especially with upgrades, but there's plenty of commanders like that already. T2 they have an unusual assortment of toys to play with, but none that are outstandingly good.

T3 is when the problems start as far as I've seen. To begin with, Terminators/Paladins which cost no red and have no cooldown. Might not sound like a lot, but the ability to spam those guys is really powerful. Since you don't have to save up red for them, you don't have to be doing all that well in the earlier game so long as you can make it to T3 without giving up the game entirely and still be able to get them out. What's more, they can become an anti-all specialist (something only the Chaos Autocannon Terms have in common) with a wrist mounted Psycannon, and still keep full melee ability.

Paladins are harsh as well, having more HP, a mini-Wailing Doom/super-Merciless Strike (however you want to look at it) and heavy melee all around. I think the game Indrid casted a while back, Tex vs Forestradio, 1v1 on Quests Heresy, demonstrated their power quite effectively. They can hit the field, charge your army headfirst, secure an almost guaranteed kill on a squad/vehicle, and retreat back out with almost no risk thanks to their armor type and health pool.

Certain commanders of course have ways of stopping/delaying this kind of super aggressive pushing and saving their units, but others really don't. Using the same 1v1 for reference, the Apo really doesn't have any specific wargear to help him stop a Paladin charge, and thus really can't help but get smashed by their power. Even though the retreat function has been moved to five minutes from the three it was previously, this doesn't stop that initial alpha strike, which can cripple an opponent's army even if he was prepared for it.

Once you get out Palas+Terms, multiple Terms, or a Crusader+either, the game becomes incredibly frustrating and uphill as the GK player can repeatedly bum-rush, kill a squad/squads, and retreat out at their leisure, often taking no losses in the process.

Obviously this isn't impossible to defeat, and some factions can do it relatively effectively even, but it makes for a very unfun and difficult thing to battle against. This, mixed with the anti-GK sentiments still lingering from the last patch, is (to my understanding) why a lot of lobbies ban them.

Also, Ops dps can be really scary sometimes. Say goodbye to your light infantry squads.

[Atlas]

They are an army that is conducive to minimal-micro, spam gameplay.

Putting aside the two GK mains that have already weighed in, if you REALLY want ezpz a-move BS, play HT or PC. Sorry bros, but those heroes you could play in 3v3 in your sleep. You can also add Max Power style TM to that

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the GK hate has just gotten silly and dangerously ingrained imo. While I can agree that GK t3 can be really powerful, it's not like GK can surprise you with it and in the case of plasma damage, it really doesn't change anything.

Jesus, nids t3 has been broken for way longer and I haven't seen a "3v3 no LA" or "3v3 no Nids" lobby come up. GK used to be relegated to the NU tier for the longest time and now that they actually have some legitimacy some people are just throwing their hands up instead of gitting gud.

Now, are GK OP? Honestly, I think SM vs GK (even with Noisy winning his series) is still too GK favored early in the matchup. I think the Brother Captain Halberd-Aegis-Tele combo is too potent right now. Terms could use some minor nerfs, and ops could use a speed and/or cost change. I think GK as a whole is suffering from some poor internal balance in areas (as in, some units are just way better than others, esp in the case of BC wargears).

But you don't see me crying over it! GK isn't even as bad as a good LA player. 2.4 was a huge patch content wise and we need the time right now to really settle things in, take an honest look at what's going on and make some refinements.

My fellow Elite players, I implore you that if you're serious about this whole GK thing let them into your lobbies, play the damn game, and post me some replays making your case. Otherwise, as far as I can tell I have no idea where GK is because of lack of games.

[Dullahan]

They are an army that is conducive to minimal-micro, spam gameplay.

0_o

with no suppression teams or jump squads in T1, i would argue that they're actually a fairly micro-intensive race.

Their hero can deal with those. They also have grenade launchers.

They also don't really need suppression when they got super scouts.


GK is what SM fanboys wanted SM to be for years. Tough and durable, generally adept at both melee and range (softens some hard counters) and terminators as regular units.

[hiveminion]

GK T1 is oddly balanced in that it is generally over the top in terms of ranged dps but restricted in unit diversity, and IST and Ops are very fragile. I'd prefer to see it a bit more diverse with toned down piercing damage.

GK T2 is alright.

GK T3 is pretty unbalanced with GK Terminators and Paladins obviously overperforming. Anticipating their arrival is not much use when your counters are generally restricted to overwhelming plasma damage (which some races don't even have access to). With their 5-minute get-out-of-jail free card they are guaranteed to stick around. Even with retreat on cooldown you can block most standard anti-Terminator tactics with the Canticle or Dark Excommunication.

I can't fathom how people can even suggest these units in their current state are balanced. They have the golden combination of all five relevant skills: tanky, mobile, ranged, melee, and crowd-control. No other unit in the game gets even remotely close in terms of versatility, and all for a decent price at that. The support they can get from the Brocap (including globals) and the Libbie means any decent GK player has the tools to counter the counters his opponent has. And you're always allowed to fuck up at least once with the retreat.

Sure all factions have abusable combos in 3v3s, but GK right now are top-ranked at the moment, with Eldar a close second. I actually played vs a Cloak of Shadows Warlock with double Fire Dragons in the bottom lane of Argus, with GK. It was actually a good game, going well into T3. It was also a cheesefest of hilarious proportions. Don't even make me laugh comparing GK T3 to Nid T3. I'd swap Fexes out for a Predator any day of the week.

And yes I am playing GK. I can see how the problems are mitigated in 1v1 but only because it's more rare for a game to last into T3, plus the GK player can't surf through T2 on the back of his AV-toting allies. That isn't a sign of balance! If anything that supports the notion that GK T3 in its current state is overperforming.

PS: Interceptors are also pretty amazeballs.

[SinisterLaugh]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; the GK hate has just gotten silly and dangerously ingrained imo.

Totally agree.
What we need is a "GK appreciation day" (or even "week")

[Adeptus Noobus]

This topic has been discussed so many times that I have lost track.
Yes,

• There are some problems with internal balance
• There are some very bad matchups
• Their T3 is very strong right now

BUT, all of these things have been addressed before. Even by Caeltos, who specifically said that they are still not where he wants them to be, and that they are a work in progress. People need to calm down, assess the situation and let it rest until a patch comes out. Re-assess the situation again and THEN come back to the forums to post about GK balance again.
My personal experience is that I have not seen many good GK players out there. Many are wondering why their rush to T3 is not working when you are hammering them with Melee and/or Walkers and the Paladins + Terminators just don't cut it anymore because too much ground was lost. Once a good GK player enters the lobby, I do feel the frustration many have described but also like the challenge.

Now Inquisitor hatred, that I can get myself behind

TL;DR Calm down

P.S: Forestradio, your opinions are not valid any longer as you have quit the game

[Sub_Zero]

BUT, all of these things have been addressed before. Even by Caeltos, who specifically said that they are still not where he wants them to be, and that they are a work in progress. People need to calm down, assess the situation and let it rest until a patch comes out.

GK defenders should calm down and allow others to hate, to ban and to do whatever they want with this currently broken race. This hate didn't appear just like that, there were a lot of patches but the change to GK terminators was the "bravest" one (what is bravery usually compared to?) of them all and received corresponding attention.

[531st]

Because ppl dont like to adapt their builds. It is much easier to cryhard than to try to think how to counter smth. It was like this it is, and it will be. Half the games were "no chaos" when chaos rising game out, half the game were "no IG" when retrib came out, half the games are "no GK" when GK units that are almost as good as other factions' strong units. Also the amount of ragers in this game is very high, i'd say, so it became their saving grace, they dont need to think what to blame anymore for their own mistakes. Blaming GK is cool now

Also judging by hate that SS recieved back when they were 8 piercing DPS, i doubt that half of the ppl crying about GK have any rational idea behind this

P.S. Yet i dont deny that ops are broken and terminator spam is very hard to counter. Combine that with ignorant and unsportsmanlike ppl that elite is unfortunately not lacking of atm and u get even more hate

[egewithin]

In short, it is too hard to deal with them currently.

[Paradise Lost]

Purgation squads are also completely redundant now. GK I've played with tend to just ditch them in favor of psycannon SQs, because the damage difference is not that great and you get a tankier unit with much higher melee skill and damage.

And I still wonder why the tankiest hero in the game is also one of the most mobile ones, can buff his units, do splash damage, AND has suppression and knockback immunity. The other tanky variants tend to lack one of these (WB and FC can be suppressed, CL cant buff and is slow as heck and the HT is honestly the weakest of the tanky heroes but has an amazing ranged weapon), but BC has them all. It's like if GK were made to be the special snowflake Mary Sues they are in the fluff and tabletop (I highly doubt this was intentional, just stating the general feeling). Hopefully they'll get fixed soon.

[Crewfinity]

Purgation squads are also completely redundant now. GK I've played with tend to just ditch them in favor of psycannon SQs, because the damage difference is not that great and you get a tankier unit with much higher melee skill and damage.

purgations definitely aren't redundant, although they are in a much less strong position within the GK composition imo. really where they shine over SS with psycannon is as an AV unit. they have superior range to the SS, and put out 60 explosive dps instead of 17 (20 with psybolt ammo). also the melee skill really doesnt matter as much in T2, most melee units get upgrades and wipe the floor with SS at that point.

They don't even need Purgation anymore, they just go double strike squad (which beats all of their counterparts in both melee, ranged and health for some reason) with plasma IST and upgrade them to psycannons to rape your whole army. If you even try to supress them you'll get the tankiest hero in the game teleporting/charging into your face with a splash damage power melee halberd.


Yeah,perfectly balanced.

bringing this in here to consolidate all the GK hating into one thread

double SS is powerful in T1, but scales pretty terribly. they're weak to vehicles and dedicated melee in t2, and their upgrades are horribly inefficient. for example with orks you can get double sluggas and rush a deff dread. once the sluggas get their nobz they can solo the bro cap even with his halberd, and will shred strike squads left and right.

And I still wonder why the tankiest hero in the game is also one of the most mobile ones, can buff his units, do splash damage, AND has suppression and knockback immunity. The other tanky variants tend to lack one of these (WB and FC can be suppressed, CL cant buff and is slow as heck and the HT is honestly the weakest of the tanky heroes but has an amazing ranged weapon), but BC has them all. It's like if GK were made to be the special snowflake Mary Sues they are in the fluff and tabletop (I highly doubt this was intentional, just stating the general feeling). Hopefully they'll get fixed soon.

WB is speed 5, has higher than normal courage and also the bosspole which gives 50% suppression immunity. he can get splash damage with spiky armor, and is very mobile with angry bitz.

FC is speed 5, has wargear that gives suppression resistance, and he buffs his guys up all over the place. he can also do splash damage with thunderhammer and is actually one of the more mobile heroes with teleporter/armor or alacrity.

HT is speed 4.5, can become more mobile with the extended carapace, has some of the best weapons in the game, and also has good support options with improved synapse.

CL is speed 4.5, which increases to 6.5 under worship. also he may not be able to buff allies besides the energy regen wargear but he can debuff enemies with the demonic visage.

bro cap is speed 4, which increases to 5 with WaTH. the most common build with him is aegis into halberd/teleporter, which means he is solely a beatstick with no AV, who can buff with WaTH.

so i dunno what you're talking about there, he's absolutely not one of the most mobile heroes.



BC is scary, especially with the halberd and teleporter. but he's slow as balls, and his turning rate is horrendous. so if you keep going in circles around him he'll just keep turning slowly and never make an attack. he also lost a lot of retreat killing potential due to that change.

[Paradise Lost]

purgations definitely aren't redundant, although they are in a much less strong position within the GK composition imo. really where they shine over SS with psycannon is as an AV unit. they have superior range to the SS, and put out 60 explosive dps instead of 17 (20 with psybolt ammo). also the melee skill really doesnt matter as much in T2, most melee units get upgrades and wipe the floor with SS at that point.

As I said, that purchase becomes completely redundant when you can just upgrade your SS and IST to rape the heck out of any and all HI units. Unlike Purgation, SS have more health and don't need to worry much about jump squads which they can just force melee while ISTs finish them off. Some heroes have ways to counter this, but most don't. This combo, combined with the ever-annoying BC making your setup teams useless, wipes whole squads in seconds in ways that make double MoT CSM/Wraithguard blush.

bringing this in here to consolidate all the GK hating into one thread

double SS is powerful in T1, but scales pretty terribly. they're weak to vehicles and dedicated melee in t2, and their upgrades are horribly inefficient. for example with orks you can get double sluggas and rush a deff dread. once the sluggas get their nobz they can solo the bro cap even with his halberd, and will shred strike squads left and right.

>sluggas
>soloing BC
>ever
This is a blatant lie.

>will shred SS left and right
And you conveniently ignore the fact that they will get shot to pieces trying to get in range, after finally getting there getting finished off because they cant melee all the squad at the same time and either the IST or the other SS will keep shooting at them doing massive damage in the process. Purgations at least have the weakness of not being able to hold their own in melee.

WB is speed 5, has higher than normal courage and also the bosspole which gives 50% suppression immunity. he can get splash damage with spiky armor, and is very mobile with angry bitz.

FC is speed 5, has wargear that gives suppression resistance, and he buffs his guys up all over the place. he can also do splash damage with thunderhammer and is actually one of the more mobile heroes with teleporter/armor or alacrity.

HT is speed 4.5, can become more mobile with the extended carapace, has some of the best weapons in the game, and also has good support options with improved synapse.

CL is speed 4.5, which increases to 6.5 under worship. also he may not be able to buff allies besides the energy regen wargear but he can debuff enemies with the demonic visage.

bro cap is speed 4, which increases to 5 with WaTH. the most common build with him is aegis into halberd/teleporter, which means he is solely a beatstick with no AV, who can buff with WaTH.

so i dunno what you're talking about there, he's absolutely not one of the most mobile heroes.



BC is scary, especially with the halberd and teleporter. but he's slow as balls, and his turning rate is horrendous. so if you keep going in circles around him he'll just keep turning slowly and never make an attack. he also lost a lot of retreat killing potential due to that change.

Your point? You basically just repeated what I said while severely downplaying everything the BC can do.



Tell me, do you play GK in the tabletop? Because you clearly have an agenda.

[Crewfinity]

>sluggas
>soloing BC
>ever
This is a blatant lie.

lab it. with the nob and burnas they will solo the halberd/aegis bro cap 90% of the time, unless he gets a quick kill on the nob. with the hammer its a harder fight but they still win a majority of the time

>will shred SS left and right
And you conveniently ignore the fact that they will get shot to pieces trying to get in range, after finally getting there getting finished off because they cant melee all the squad at the same time and either the IST or the other SS will keep shooting at them doing massive damage in the process. Purgations at least have the weakness of not being able to hold their own in melee.

You mean if i run a melee unit straight at 3 ranged units it wont solo all of them?!?!
yeah no shit
getting your melee units into melee is where skill comes in, but with some support melee units will ruin a GK player's day. for example double upgraded sluggas with a trukk costs 1020/110, double SS with psycannons and justicars and IST costs 1420/100.
with those units the orks will win 99% of the time.

Your point? You basically just repeated what I said while severely downplaying everything the BC can do.

my point was in explaining how you completely ignored all the upsides of the other heroes to focus on their downsides, while ignoring the BC's weaknesses.

Tell me, do you play GK in the tabletop? Because you clearly have an agenda.

I do actually, but that has no bearing on my playing this game.
I also main GK, playing primarily 1v1's so my opinions and 'agenda' stem from my experiences there.

[MaxPower]

[..] FC is speed 5, has wargear that gives suppression resistance, and he buffs his guys up all over the place. he can also do splash damage with thunderhammer and is actually one of the more mobile heroes with teleporter/armor or alacrity. [..]

Pls, the TH only does splash damage if you use the battlecry, otherwise it wont do splash damage, because it was deemed too strong for the asking price of the TH which makes sense.

The thing that makes no sense is the fact that a tankier melee hero gets a melee splash damage weapon instead.

[Bahamut]

I still don't get why people say strike squads don't scale too good. They scale way way way better than tactical marines.. each model has more melee dps and more range piercing dps than tac counterpart. Not even the tac sarge has 70 melee skill and sure.. ATSKNF is strong but SS do have their skills as well

[Paradise Lost]

You mean if i run a melee unit straight at 3 ranged units it wont solo all of them?!?!
yeah no shit

Oh my God is this some kind of attempt at being clever? You're the one who made the double slugga argument.

getting your melee units into melee is where skill comes in, but with some support melee units will ruin a GK player's day. for example double upgraded sluggas with a trukk costs 1020/110, double SS with psycannons and justicars and IST costs 1420/100.
with those units the orks will win 99% of the time.

1) You forgot the IST upgrades
2) I was mainly referring to their effectiveness against HI, though LI still gets torn to shreds
3) How can you be this dishonest?

my point was in explaining how you completely ignored all the upsides of the other heroes to focus on their downsides, while ignoring the BC's weaknesses.

I didn't. I actually freaking mentioned them.

>BC
>weaknesses
What, being slow while WATH is on cooldown?

do actually, but that has no bearing on my playing this game.
I also main GK, playing primarily 1v1's so my opinions and 'agenda' stem from my experiences there.

Then there is no point in continuing this discussion any further. You probably think cookie-cutter builds don't exist.

[Cyris]

I still don't get why people say strike squads don't scale too good. They scale way way way better than tactical marines.. each model has more melee dps and more range piercing dps than tac counterpart. Not even the tac sarge has 70 melee skill and sure.. ATSKNF is strong but SS do have their skills as well

A fair question. Other GK players and myself have written on this subject a number of times on the forum. Instead of looking them up (which anyone should do if they are interested) I'll try to give a quick rundown.

I mained SM in the past, and now main GK. From that experience, I feel in a vauge way that tacs scale better then SS. This is more a game sense then a list of specific reasons. With SM, I felt like tacs were the backbone of my army, that they stayed useful in almost every phase of the game, and could even make in impact in T3 when tanks and super units were running around. With GK, my SS make a large splash in T1, and then diminish in importance, and that by T3 they are feeling like dead weight (upkeep and pop). So here are some of the reasons I think I had this feeling...
The damage differences between tacs and SS for the basic bolters and melee is nearly irrelevant. It's a few points for both, so anything a SS can beat, a tac is gonna do so close a job, you'd hardly ever tell a difference. Kraken bolts more then make up the difference in SM vs GK for instance, and help out against a number of other targets in other matchups (Warriors, Sent, Shuri kindda, Nobs, CSM/AC etc.)
+10 melee skill and a special is where all the difference is. It means SS don't get knocked down by 70 melee squads (specifically, they have an even chance to knock them down, limited by model count differences) and more importantly they can preform specials against Tacs, CSM and other low melee skill units. This advantage is huge in T1. Like, super big.
It also becomes really minor in T2. Crew mentioned this earlier, but it bears repeating. Many T2 melee squads are going to wipe the floor with you (when comparing costs) from pure stat comparisons (including whatever synergies their army brings), so standing around praying for a special is a great way to lose a squad. Mind Blades of course helps here (or libby hammerhand), but the +10 melee skill is only +10% chance to special per attack. If you are fighting T2 sluggas with Nob, burnas, Waaaag and maybe another buff from something, waiting for a special to proc is playing russin roluette where you enemy can't lose. Emphasis here: SS's low melee damage (relative to actual dedicated melee) and lack of charge means that enemy melee squads are unlikely to be wiped on retreat. By contrast, slugga/horma/shee will gladly pour damage into retreating squads for some time. Add in more plentiful CC from suppresion teams or zone control in T2 that stop you from closing into melee when there are enemy ranged squads around (shootas, termas, GM etc.) and your big advantage from T1 is often (but not always) meaningless.
Meanwhile, Tacs get 2 amazing special weapons, a very strong leader, still have Kraken and fast capping, and can always morph into Sterns.
The two big points left are comparing leaders, and th weapon upgrades. I don't feel like writing more now, so I'll pause here.

I hope this is useful! It's important to note that I think SS are in a mostly balanced state. They make a big splash in T1 then fade in importance - but that's fine. Not every unit should be great in all tiers. I also think they make the Chaos and SM matchups a lot easier, and that Chaos has a much easier time negating this advantage. Do they make either match TOO easy? That's not something I'm terribly confident in, but my gut as of now is no. As long as SM are cautious early game, they can develop very competitive armies.

I reserve the right to edit this after re-reading it This got longer then I expected! I encourage anyone frusted by GK to play as them, it's always the best way to understand the weaknesses of something you feel is over powered (in every game).

[saltychipmunk]

I still don't get why people say strike squads don't scale too good. They scale way way way better than tactical marines.. each model has more melee dps and more range piercing dps than tac counterpart. Not even the tac sarge has 70 melee skill and sure.. ATSKNF is strong but SS do have their skills as well

This is debatable. And it mostly relies on an opinion of what heavy infantry squads like tac ss or csm should prioritize in their transition too t2.

Most of the time high melee skill , high melee damage and hp are not nearly as important if they dont also come with increased movement speed and or a melee charge or some other engagement / chase mechanism

Plus t2 kind of marks the start of the true ranged spam and ranged upgrades are what are clearly favored on each of these units. and when you look at that , then the tac upgrades are cheaper and more specialized individually, which means you can gain far more efficiency against a certain target with them than strikes and csm simply get a better all round damage source.

the tacs dont need a sarge to get plasma.
and csm dont need their champion period.

those are two facts that make them much better at scaling , even if one is only in an economy sense.

and the psi cannon is mediocre at best since it has no spike potential and does pretty low damage for its power cost ( a trade off for the damage everything damage type... but a trade off none the less)

i have been a champion of this style of play , but i more often than not skip getting leaders on tacs and i usually leave the champion on my csm as one of the last t2 upgrade i get. the 5 - 10 pop difference in doing this is very much noticeable and i like having the option.

[Paradise Lost]

and the psi cannon is mediocre at best since it has no spike potential and does pretty low damage for its power cost ( a trade off for the damage everything damage type... but a trade off none the less)

I don't see it as mediocre, considering it's purpose. It's not meant to turn the squad into an ad-hoc AV unit like Tacs, it's meant as transitional AV to deal with light vehicles without having to purchase a dedicated AV unit. They also tear up HI very well.

[Crewfinity]

and the psi cannon is mediocre at best since it has no spike potential and does pretty low damage for its power cost ( a trade off for the damage everything damage type... but a trade off none the less)

I don't see it as mediocre, considering it's purpose. It's not meant to turn the squad into an ad-hoc AV unit like Tacs, it's meant as transitional AV to deal with light vehicles without having to purchase a dedicated AV unit. They also tear up HI very well.

The SS Psycannon definitely cant deal with vehicles without a supplemental source. No FoTM and sustained damage instead of burst makes them decent at shooting anything from far away, but they cannot chase or kite vehicles at all.
That said, it is still a very good weapon upgrade, as it gives increased performance across the board against all unit types, and does well to add additional pressure to vehicles along with other harder AV sources (rhino, vindi, purgation).

[PhatE]

I feel like people are still having trouble getting past T1 against GK and being at a greater advantage both economically and strategically. But having said that stutter stepping is really powerful once you activate eerrrmmm not battle cry.

I still think that the combo's that GK can pull off are really great like mindblades with the VA just one shots transports and even without it on still does really nice damage.

It's surprisingly fun to play as them since you feel more relaxed playing as the BC but I've said it for a long time that GK's are nothing without the BC. There have been so many games where you/your opponent may lose him (as hard as that is with Aegis) and everything from there is really uphill. This can be said for a lot of races but GK suffers really hard without him.

I'll suggest again that there be nerfs to the BC but some slight buffs to the race itself that would help with the overall frustrations of fighting them. The T2 aspect of GK or the BC rather is just ridiculous as the 1 man GK Terminator squad. It's so hard to kill him and the teleport makes things really difficult. If that were tweaked in some ways then a lot of races would have a better time playing against GK.