Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
User avatar
Cyris
Level 4
Posts: 649
Joined: Fri 22 Mar, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Cyris » Wed 28 Oct, 2015 7:41 pm

Oddnerd wrote:
The sarge will follow your move command even though you start repairing, my guess is that he can't repair and doesn't stop because of it.

This is how it was explained to me, Cyris. The sergeants don't have the repair ability that the standard troops do, so when you issue a repair the sergeant will go through with any existing orders because repair does not apply to him.


Sorry if I was not clear. The sarge, and ALL MODELS will do this. It's not just the sarge. This happens a lot, and with more then just GM.

EDIT:
Wise Windu wrote:The sergeant already has the repair ability. It's caused by the move command being issued before the Repair command, which has already been mentioned. It happens with all repair units.

Rekt?

Seriously man, have a little faith in the modders.
User avatar
Oddnerd
Level 4
Posts: 727
Joined: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 28 Oct, 2015 7:48 pm

I'll have pay attention to which models act this way from now on, but I could have sworn it was only the sergeants who behaved this way. I can't recall a standard GM model engaging in this behaviour. Windu is one of the devs so I'll take his word on it, but Riku's explanation was more consistent with my memory of sergeants doing it.
User avatar
Wise Windu
Moderator
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat 14 Sep, 2013 2:22 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Wise Windu » Wed 28 Oct, 2015 7:52 pm

I can't speak to GM necessarily, since I rarely play IG, but it happens all the time to me with Dire Avengers.
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 3082
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 28 Oct, 2015 8:04 pm

I guessed it was this way since scout sarges don't have repair in retail but got it in Elite.
Tex
Level 4
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat 27 Jul, 2013 9:33 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Tex » Wed 28 Oct, 2015 9:42 pm

slugga nob still cannot repair
Atlas

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Atlas » Wed 28 Oct, 2015 10:01 pm

Tex wrote:slugga nob still cannot repair


Slugga nob op enough as is :x
User avatar
Wise Windu
Moderator
Posts: 1190
Joined: Sat 14 Sep, 2013 2:22 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Wise Windu » Wed 28 Oct, 2015 10:48 pm

Tex wrote:slugga nob still cannot repair
It has the ability, so it should be able to. Does the squad not have the repair ability when only the Nob is left?
Tex
Level 4
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat 27 Jul, 2013 9:33 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Tex » Thu 29 Oct, 2015 4:29 pm

I will have to check, but I remember not being able to repair when I just had the nob left on the squad.
Epostle
Level 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Epostle » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 12:43 pm

So I just want to clarify... that post about nobs was me trolling hard. So all of you that took those 2 posts seriously... get a nice cold wash cloth and go to bed.

I do however find Deff Dread almost useless. From all of the videos I see, the only time you get Deff Dread is if you're ahead/rushing to t2, almost like the Blood Crusher.

Deff Dread can be good for backdoor gen bashing, but when you got sluggas that can, imho, do a much better job for the cost, I almost find Deff Dread completely limited in its abilities.

It can't fight head to head with any other t2 walker, which that in itself is alright due to weirdboy and other options.
Its health isn't that justified...
The speed on it is amazing!
It also has the ability to use both melee and ranged to full extent.
Its damage is... average-ish...

Personally, I fell compelled to just get something different just because Deff Dread can't do too much in most cases. There are a few where it can help you press the lead, like blood crusher, but other than that... I'd rather go for something else and just make better use out of something else rather than it.
User avatar
Crewfinity
Level 4
Posts: 712
Joined: Tue 03 Dec, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Crewfinity » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 5:18 pm

its only 250/60, so you can get 2 of them if you want to take on walkers head on. its a fast vehicle you can field almost immediately to swing a game by getting a gen bash and pushing your opponent off the field until he gets AV. its also got a great escape ability with its sprint. rushing a deff dread to get a genbash in early t1 is a classic orky tactic :)
Epostle
Level 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Epostle » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 6:09 pm

That is true but it's still just bleh.
User avatar
Crewfinity
Level 4
Posts: 712
Joined: Tue 03 Dec, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Crewfinity » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 6:50 pm

its really not :)
for what it costs it performs quite well, since it forces at least one, probably 2 AV purchases from your opponent, which will often cost more than 60 power anyway. so even if you dont get an initial gen bash when it hits the field it's usually going to put you ahead in tech and open up some room for your infantry to do work. its excellent at tying up lasdevs or missile tacs or engaging melee units.
User avatar
Cyris
Level 4
Posts: 649
Joined: Fri 22 Mar, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Cyris » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 9:30 pm

Epostle wrote:That is true but it's still just bleh.


If you really wanna get in to this, please make a new post dedicated to it (either here if you thinks it needs changes, or in strategy if you are interested in learning how to use it better).

The short is this: Deff is weak in 3v3 where it's low HP and damage make it very vulnerable. But it's an AMAZING threat in 1v1 that is used more as a gen-bash timing attack that transitions into a melee deterrent (and often forces disproportional AV expenditures), and less as a "linebreaker" like other dreads / BC.
Epostle
Level 1
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed 29 Apr, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Epostle » Sat 31 Oct, 2015 10:15 pm

Cyris: And I did exactly that so....

Crewfinity: Yeah I guess I can see that. Making the opponent spend on AV is a fairly solid choice. I guess it would be stronger against factions that have to tier up in order to get AV. Eh idk, I'm still learning.
User avatar
Black Relic
Level 4
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon 29 Jul, 2013 3:05 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Black Relic » Sun 01 Nov, 2015 4:18 am

dont forget that a Deff Dread purchase could force a lascannon upgrade giving your sluggas more room to do their damage. Which is always a plus for orks.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
Lazy John
Level 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon 02 Nov, 2015 4:44 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Lazy John » Mon 02 Nov, 2015 4:50 pm

Hi nice to meet you guys. Consider capping those zoanthropes to two units and a Neurothrope. Nerf their sight, something. End the madness please! :)
Bahamut
Level 4
Posts: 578
Joined: Fri 27 Sep, 2013 12:58 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Bahamut » Tue 03 Nov, 2015 3:57 pm

seriously nobody cares about the LRR just being a weaker version of LRC now?

Both heals for the same amount and give the same aura. both supress now but one at flamer range and the other and AC range, LRC has 1k more hp but is slower than LRR. The difference between the 2 is almost null now and the LRC gets clearly on top
User avatar
Crewfinity
Level 4
Posts: 712
Joined: Tue 03 Dec, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 03 Nov, 2015 4:05 pm

LRR still has the retreat point, which is a pretty big deal. that still makes the LRR much better in a support role IMO, especially considering the multitude of artillery options that SM have access to. it also doesn't cost red. Now that paladins cost red as well, the LRC faces a lot of internal competition.
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Tue 03 Nov, 2015 6:57 pm

Bahamut wrote:seriously nobody cares about the LRR just being a weaker version of LRC now?

Both heals for the same amount and give the same aura. both suppress now but one at flamer range and the other and AC range, LRC has 1k more hp but is slower than LRR. The difference between the 2 is almost null now and the LRC gets clearly on top


Not really..., well atleast i dont...

This could be an issue if it weren’t for :

1 sm actually works pretty well with a LRR since they have an array of units that compliment it strengths and cover its weaknesses (such as a general lack of mobility and range)

2 gk.... dont work as well with the LRC. 50% of the gk t3 is already composed of big, fat, slow, short ranged beef cake units . making that 75% is rather pointless. When i hit t3 with gk , my largest issue will realistically be dealing with battle tanks and long ranged damage units. the short ranged stuff is generally a non issue since you know.. terminators...



So I am totally fine with the Crusader outclassing the Redeemer. both are Largely situational and very much optional anyway.
User avatar
Crewfinity
Level 4
Posts: 712
Joined: Tue 03 Dec, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 04 Nov, 2015 3:56 pm

Bahamut wrote:seriously nobody cares about the LRR just being a weaker version of LRC now?

Both heals for the same amount and give the same aura. both supress now but one at flamer range and the other and AC range, LRC has 1k more hp but is slower than LRR. The difference between the 2 is almost null now and the LRC gets clearly on top


now that the codex is back i actually looked at the stats :D

so along with LRR acting as a reinforcement point, it still gives complete suppression immunity within radius 22, which is a pretty big support perk.

for the LRC you're paying an extra 100/20/350 for it to hit the field near-instantly, as well as it's durability and damage-dealing capabilities. the 350 red is not insignificant, nor is the extra req.

as far as a standalone super unit, i concur the LRC clearly outclasses the LRR. the crusader has a better assault cannon (61 piercing dps instead of 41), soon to be the same multimelta (33.33 melta dps), and its sponson weapons are a mile better.
I was just looking at the values, and unless i'm mistaken the LRC puts out a full 320 dps of single target damage with both of its hurricane bolters firing, and that damage is consistent out to its full range of 40. LRR on the other hand does only 36 flame dps in an AOE with distance modifiers.

LRR is speed 4.25 compared to 3.25, but LRC has 3250 health instead of 2500.

so while i still maintain that the LRR is a better support vehicle, and is still a very good unit for its price when you look at the SM composition (lots of ways to support it, good repair units, durable artillery and infantry squads), I think the LRC could use a decrease in the hurricane bolter DPS. I know you're paying super unit prices for it, but having 320 dps along with the 60 piercing dps and 33 melta dps from its other weapons seems a bit much.... maybe reduce the hurricane bolter damage values to 140 instead of 160? currently its damage output is just a bit over the top.

Then again, I'm almost never able to afford this unit in a 1v1 setting, so in a 3v3 format it might be fine. and if i'm able to save 800/200/350 i ought to be able to close the game out with that purchase :P
Tex
Level 4
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat 27 Jul, 2013 9:33 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Tex » Wed 04 Nov, 2015 6:23 pm

With the red cost to paladins, I'm inclined to say that nothing needs changing with the LRC.

In a realistic game where people are making proper choices, not only are you unlikely to see a super unit at all, but further, you are even less likely to see paladins and the LRC in the same match.

Even with all that DPS, it is still piercing. That doesn't free up GK from being weak against tanks (now that paladins are getting necessary nerfs). So worst case scenario, you see GK terminators and a LRC, and even this is a huge economic stretch. GK terminators are more than manageable because you can actually counter them with a walker, and the LRC isn't good against walkers either.
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 12:28 pm

The only way I would see the LRC having its damage nerfed is if it stopped being a red global call in. But I doubt that is going to happen
User avatar
egewithin
Level 5
Posts: 1144
Joined: Mon 26 Jan, 2015 7:08 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby egewithin » Fri 06 Nov, 2015 6:10 pm

Still waiting for new changes for the rest of factions here.
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Caeltos » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 1:47 pm

Posted a massive update in the first post.

Things not added in -
Zoanthrope 'Focused Warp Blast' no longer snares (now only inflicts medium damage) / details will be included at a later-time.
Zoanthrope 'Passive' no longer stacks
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 3:04 pm

So nids lost their snare? youch....

I think ill need someone to explain why the fex needed such a radical change.
User avatar
Adeptus Noobus
Level 4
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 12:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 3:06 pm

I am guessing the reasoning behind moving the Rending Claws to T2 is because of the improved anti-walker/vehicle capability, now that the Zoan no longer snares? (I'd still not send them into melee combat with a melee Dreadnought though)

I also like the nerf to the Burnas. It is not going to delay them a lot (timings are not going to be screwed here) but at least balances the value it has for Sluggas imo.

* Canticle of Absolution no longer denies enemy abilities from being used
* Canticle of Absolution energy restoration reduced from 2.5 e/s to 1.25 e/s
* Canticle of Absolution now greatly accelerates ability cooldown by 3x when inside it. (This ability will not effect Super Heavy Infantry units, such as Terminators(of all kind), Paladins, Avatar and etc)

Didn't even see this in my first pass-through. I really like seeing this energy/ability intensive scheme of your come into play.

Image

Thank you for your continued hard work, Caeltos.

P.S: Forestradio will be pleased with these Nid changes 8-)
Last edited by Adeptus Noobus on Mon 09 Nov, 2015 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Tengu
Level 1
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue 30 Jun, 2015 12:24 am

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Tengu » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 3:17 pm

Caeltos wrote:
* Heretic damage reduced from 24 to 20
* Dirge Caster range effect radius reduced from 40 to 32
* Reduced the Chaos Terminator Reaper Cannon range from 49 to 38
* Chaos Terminator rotation speed from 600 to 200


Nice to see some Chaos nefs.Image
But heretic cost reduction is unnecessary, i think. They already a bit overperform for their cost (75 melee skill, and really good dmg in melee with AC, and with GL and autoguns they can be better than a 2 GM squads...).
Also, interesting to see so Nid changes, though i don't think that removing snare effect from Zoan's "FWB" if really needed - without this nids have nothing to snare vehicles.

Caeltos wrote:* Witchblade of Kurnous special attack damage increased from 46 to 50
* Witchblade of Kurnous damage increased from 80 to 100

AWWWW YISSS! Finally Witchblade of Kurnous doing damage adequate to its price.
Caeltos wrote:* Warpath upgrade now allows the Weirdboy to be controlled when dying, instead of him being completely random.

New tactic - Weird-Bomba-boyz Image
My Eternal Crusade code - EC-HMZ40PVE9FLX3
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby saltychipmunk » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 4:47 pm

Yeah the loss of snare is pretty brutal since nids have no real long range anti vehicle options. they have a ton of mid ranged stuff and a ton of melee stuff but all of that is attached to your standard infantry / walker movement speeds which top out around 6 for ranged units (RA) and 6.5 + an active ability for melee units ( gene stealers)


The change to the Fex charge and the moving of the claws to t2 for GS clearly suggest using melee as the anti kiting tank option for nids but that seems rather unreasonable since it inherently relies on a tactic that over extends a single unit to *chase* a tank. Lord knows over extended gene stealers already bleed something fierce and any walker caught away from its main force is a sitting duck. That extra hp only gets you so far.

It will probably be perfectly fine in a 1v1 setting but it makes the nid anti battle tank options in team games much riskier.


The tic changes are odd, was there a particular reason why they needed them?
User avatar
Cyris
Level 4
Posts: 649
Joined: Fri 22 Mar, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Cyris » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 4:54 pm

Very much looking forward to this patch! I appreciate the mix of balance tweaks, and balance overhauls. It helps keep the game fresh.

Now that this seems to be a "final" list, here's my rundown:

Space Marines:
Very happy to see the Thunderhammer change!
I haven't ever felt that the VenDread was under-costed. It's req heavy, costs red and comes a tier later then the base dread and doesn't have the upgrade options, but charge and tons of health are good. ::shrugs::
I didn't grok how strong the LRR aura was so I didn't like this change at first. I'm always a fan of replacing hidden stats with overt effects though, so I've come around. An aura of massive damage reduction is invisible and causes "why the fuck did I lose?" moments, which suppressing flamers are very clear. "The flamers suppressed me, so I lost" - much more transparent and can be more meaningfully planed around (I need suppression resistance, or to attack from range).
I generally like the termie rotation speed reduction, not sure just how slow 200 is off hand, so we'll see in game. I almost want melee guys to turn faster, but the whole point is that it makes these insanely tanky units less killy, which I'm all for.

Chaos
When tics went from 240 to 210 I complained a whole lot, but it turned out they were ok. So while my gut reaction is that this is a really dangerous change, I'm gonna try to keep my mouth shut for at least a month. The one thing I'll say is that 3x tics into T2 is a REALLY strong 1v1 strat (mix in a havok or T1.5 unit as needed), and a cost reuction is going to help it a lot. The melee damage of the tics is largely irrelevant, when 24 doomblasters close to melee against your T1 army, you retreat. 20% reduced mele damage will not change this. It WILL make them a lot more counterable by melee squads though - with a little micro to bait/mitigate doomblasts, tics were counterable with melee, so the damage reduction will mean a lot more there. We'll see!

Grey Knights
I have tons of opinions on GK naturally, so here goes:
Overall I like the direction of nerfing the BC. His over performance (mixed with a few other over preforming units) makes GK gameplay rely on him and skip a lot of sub-par units in favor of OP workhorses. Nerfing the BC and those units, while buffing up the slackers, will help make GK a more varied faction to play. This patch does not go as far as I'd like in these directions, but it takes some good steps. Here goes:
Please T1 req only Warrior Acolyte squad and bump SS to a T1.5 Power unit. This will make GK truly unique from their SM/Chaos counterparts.
BC change to medium size will be in line with the nerfs he's getting, and put him in line with the HT and WB's medium size.
Losing Flamefury Strike is a rather large nerf, it was very good to combo with GK's CC.
The Palli changes are perfect I think. They are now strong terminators, as opposed to nuts!
Teleport-Assault sounds like it'll be fun! I feel like GK termies could stand to lose the teleport skill if they are keeping retreat... but the Power cost increase might cover this.
Teleport-Pack being removed is great. I'd advocated for this before, I think it solved too many problems and was inappropriate on a commander who can't be suppressed or KDed.
Purifiers Blades needs a redesign or buff. With pack being removed, Purg is actually the only accessory worth buying.
Canticle changes sound REALLY interesting. I can't wait to see what combos this brings about.
Ops nerfs are the wrong nerfs, and too minor. Range changes don't fix what's toxic about them, it only makes them more all-or-nothing.
T1 Purgs are going to be so much fun. They were my absolute favorite part of playing GK in 2.3!
Rhino changes make me happy/sad. Happy cause it got the buffs it needed so badly, sad because T1 transport play was very interesting and unique. It needed more balance work to be a T1 purchase, and I wish it still was in T1, but it and purg should not be T1 together. I don't like GK having reinforcement in T2 either, just cause I thought it was a nice racial aspect that they didn't have it. ::shrugs:: I will deff be building this guy!
I'm scared of the SS change. If the Psilencer is good, SS are going to be OP ;) Them being better versions of tac/CSM in T1 was ok because they scaled real badly. I'm nervous that this will put them in an unhealthy position.
VA needed nerfs.
Purifiers needed buffs.
Flamer Dread needed buffs real bad.
I think psy-purg needs a small nerf to it's burst duration. The amount of damage 1 salvo will do is a bit too much spike damage to a vehicle that drives by them for just a second. I also reaaaaly think they should have a minor weapon cooldown to make them susceptible to suppression.

Eldar
Dark Reaper Exarch seems pretty weak now for cost? Sight is great, but Rangers do that job better and Reapers aren't exactly a spearhead unit. He doesn't die last and is rather expensive.
I'm happy with the firedragon changes, their are now actually counters to them!

Imperial Guard
The hwt changes are wierd, I'm not sure how to take them. 20% increased total health, 20% reduced model health. Will make them better to execute as LC. More suceptable to AOE, but more overall health. It's a berf (buff+nerf)!
Having moved from GK to IG, I can confirm that Ogryns are nuts good, and that people who complain bout them are bad players. I think the reinforcement reduction is a minor but totally unneeded buff.
I love the Servo-Skull buff ;)
Commissar power increase is a good change, they were absolutely under-costed.
I never make Kasrkin, and I don't think this will have me start making them. When I'm T3 I'm making tanks, new GM's to heal the tanks, or support squads (HWT, Manti, Ogryns). Another ranged infantry squad just doesn't seem to fit into my needs :/ I figure I need to play more IG to figure out when they are good, but unless I'm power starved it seems a no brainier to wait 75 more req and get a Russ.
Banewolf call in - It's still crazy OP and very hard to play around. Can the drop time at least go up to give a bit more of a counter window? Like the LRC -make it take a full 10+ seconds to arrive. I feel like such a cheesy fuck when I drop this right on a squad of light infantry!

Nids
Bio-Plasma can wipe nearly full health squads and has become a core part of my HT play against some races. I do not think it needs a buff! If it's cost is to be reduced, I would be happy to see the damage go down a bit. That said, HT is the weakest of the nid commanders, so... eh?
Genestealer changes are prolly for the best. More AV potential in T2 with the Zoan change, and less melee dominance on a squad that brings a level of dominance beyond any other T2 squad in the game... if paired with AG warriors.
Thornback only able to charge vehicles is a real interesting change. Saving the charge as an out won't work anymore, making the Fex much more aggresive, which I like!
VC and BS fex upgrades should still have their prices swapped imo. VC fex is still mediocre and BC fex is oh-so useful!
Any zoan nerf I'm in favor of. Losing snare hurts, but they are still a nuts good unit. I didn't think the passive stacked?!?!! Well, it damn well shouldn't so good change!
I like the Lictor melee skill increase. It's just too goofy to have a melee specialist T3 sub-commander with 60 melee skill ;) If he's OP now, nerf something else!


Orks
Good change on Burnas, minor price bump seems fine for such a good upgrade.
I am SO excited for the Wierdboy controllable bomb!


All in all, great looking patch! Can't wait.
Last edited by Cyris on Mon 09 Nov, 2015 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Adeptus Noobus
Level 4
Posts: 991
Joined: Sat 15 Feb, 2014 12:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Patch 2.5 (WIP)

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Mon 09 Nov, 2015 4:54 pm

saltychipmunk wrote:Yeah the loss of snare is pretty brutal since nids have no real long range anti vehicle options. they have a ton of mid ranged stuff and a ton of melee stuff but all of that is attached to your standard infantry / walker movement speeds which top out around 6 for ranged units (RA) and 6.5 + an active ability for melee units ( gene stealers)

Venom Brood? They have range 44 as well.

Return to “Balance Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests