arguments for 400 req tacs:

[saltychipmunk]

So This is probably an unoriginal concept but i think it is something worth looking at (again? maybe?)

Why dont we make tacs 400.

Why?

1 better relationship between tacs , csm and strikes. currently tacs are the weakest of the three. Not by much mind you , but they are the clear losers.

If we compare them to csm, yes they have kracken bolts and yes they have slightly better hp and damage. BUT they do not get anything close to the synergy gifted too the csm via chaos worship. Csm + worship = more cost effective unit than tacs.

If we compare them to strikes. Strikes have better ranged damage (prior to kraken bolts), better burst but more importantly they have that melee special. I feel it is the presence of that melee proficiency which justifies that extra 50 req on strikes.

When looking at tacs however, they do not get the cost effective synergy of the csm / heretic combo nor do they gain the versatility of being able to hold their ground in melee against low melee skill melee units. they just get kraken bolts


2 non upgraded scouts are the worst unit in the game in a stand up fight. they almost have the lowest damage lack an active ability and they have the lowest hp. Unlike heretics and even ist (which have high dps numbers and burst potential) the scouts don't pull any weight in a standup fight prior to upgrades this leave the burden squarely on the tacs which are not better than strikes and are much weaker than tic supported csm.


the end result is that sm is slightly less potent in the opening match up than every other race. furthermore unlike tic worship or melee prowess the tac kraken bolts are dependent entirely on the presence of heavy infantry making their one main perk the most situational of the bunch.

This is of course my opinion .

[Kentation]

You've not mentioned that Tacs cap faster, the only unit outside T3 that possess this trait. Just a friendly reminder, not shutting down your argument

[egewithin]

currently tacs are the weakest of the three. Not by much mind you , but they are the clear losers.

No, Tacs are better than CSM and Strike squad. Strike Squad may seem stronger than Tacs if we think that they are better in melee and more damage in ranged, but Tacs are paying off heavly in T2 and T3. Fisrt of all, thanks to new patch and even with out the new patch ( 2.5 ) Tacs are giving you AV option. Strike Squad are going to loose ther AV option and even with their psycannon, they can not make a real threat. Tac missile launcher is far better.

Secondly, Tacs can tear down Strikes armor with plasma gun, can drop a SS model with a small buff in 3 shots I think. Strikes are not that threatful. Not going to say anything about flamers of these two squads, I like both of them.

For CSM, they don't even have an AV option and loosing to Tacs without worship. That is why CSM is cheaper than Tacs because Tacs can fight without a very good support but CSM needs worship to be very effective. However, CSM goes mad when they get any mark. Yes, Tacs will loose against any kind of mark. But Tacs can still change their purpuse while CSM are now one way made.

When looking at tacs however, they do not get the cost effective synergy of the csm / heretic combo nor do they gain the versatility of being able to hold their ground in melee against low melee skill melee units. they just get kraken bolts

Actually, they can beat low melee skill squads as good as CSM. They are beating un-upgraded Heretics and Hormagounts in melee combat.

2 non upgraded scouts are the worst unit in the game in a stand up fight.

Because we get them as a capping unit. Also, sniper spam please.

[Black Relic]

Tacs are fine. There is nothing wrong with them. Yes they don't have melee proficiency like CSM or strikes (without including they shall know no fear) but they can still hold there own for a while if you really need them too.

Tacs are WAY more versatile than CSM. CSM upgrade (marks) counter a specific armor type and they hurts ALOT compare to tacs because they don't have that versatility. Tacs have a weapon upgrade for every weapon type in the game. Yes they have to pay for the upgrade but you as a player don't have to purchase another squad to counter another unit just have your tacs get a missile launcher for a vehicle, plasma vs hi\shi, and flamers vs infantry. Flamers are actually amazing and i think they should be looked at in how they do their damage.

plus when you look at SM as an army they have quick access to AV (or transitional AV) in t2 for 3 t1 (Devs for hard AV, Tacs for Medium source of AV since i cant count them as a hard counter, and ASM with soft AV via melta bomb) units. To my knowledge every other race only has one hard av source from a t1 unit (their set up team) with the exception of nids and IG (catachans serg). Heavy melee on warriors doesn't cut it, but you don't get it for the melee damage so no one can really complain about it.

SS may have a special attack but they don't have a melee unit in t1 anymore. And SS melee falls off pretty much the moment t2 melee hit the field or a t1 leader like shees. (unless they get hit buy energy burst of whatever the ability is called to slow and burn energy). The reason way people dont like playing vs GK is because of operatives, and the burst from IST (which their starting burst should go down but then go back up to what it is now when both leaders are purchased to help SM vs Gk 1v1 a bit).

There is my take on Tacs getting a cost reduction. My verdict is no. SM is already a strong race it is. Plus as mentioned before they do cap and decap 50% faster.

[ol'smithy]

WIth the drop pod costing 350 and giving a tac squad, you're almost kinda paying 400 for each squad in the end. I guess it's up to you if 100 red is worth 100 req.

[Asmon]

To compare units from different armies is never the way to go. Do TSM perform poorly amongst the SM army in their current state?

There you have your answer. No need to look anywhere else. Thanks for sharing.

[Sub_Zero]

Instead of making tacs cheaper I would make CSM more expensive. That is very stupid how Chaos can afford two solid ranged units whereas other similar units can be fielded only with unpleasant consequences - you can't get power nodes in time.

Heretics + CSM >> scouts + tacs early on, I absolutely support this opinion. It doesn't mean anything that CSM are worse in terms of health and ranged damage output, their synergy with heretics is way better. I never find it problematic to fight against melee early on as Chaos, I very often find it problematic to fight against melee early on as space marines.

As it stands now CSM, strike squads and tactical marines are the best starting ranged units, you cannot beat them at range with anything else. Then a solution to them is a melee unit. Yet strike squads rape anything in melee early on, CSM aren't hesitant to engage melee targets either with support of heretics who can also doomblast to make things even worse, tacs on the other hand don't receive enough support from scouts (yeah, 75/15 upgrade solves it, but that is an upgrade mind you) and have to resort to moving backwards a lot.

My issue is with cheap CSM, not with tacs. But I see the reasoning behind the cost decrease to tacs.

[egewithin]

Btw, even talking about a cost decrease on SS is much better than talking for Tacs.

[Paradise Lost]

If we compare them to csm, yes they have kracken bolts and yes they have slightly better hp and damage. BUT they do not get anything close to the synergy gifted too the csm via chaos worship. Csm + worship = more cost effective unit than tacs.

So you want a single unit to be more cost-effective than two other units synergyzing? Also they only benefit from Tzeench and Nurgle worship.

If we compare them to strikes. Strikes have better ranged damage (prior to kraken bolts), better burst but more importantly they have that melee special. I feel it is the presence of that melee proficiency which justifies that extra 50 req on strikes.

Just because SS are overpowered doesn't mean we should make Tacs OP as well.

2 non upgraded scouts are the worst unit in the game in a stand up fight. they almost have the lowest damage lack an active ability and they have the lowest hp. Unlike heretics and even ist (which have high dps numbers and burst potential) the scouts don't pull any weight in a standup fight prior to upgrades this leave the burden squarely on the tacs which are not better than strikes and are much weaker than tic supported csm.

And then you upgrade them and they become on of the best support units in the game, while heretics lose any relevance in T2 outside of worship and ISTs get overshadowed by GK HI. Scouts maintain their relevance with grenades, countering melee or bleeding models from range.

the end result is that sm is slightly less potent in the opening match up than every other race. furthermore unlike tic worship or melee prowess the tac kraken bolts are dependent entirely on the presence of heavy infantry making their one main perk the most situational of the bunch.

You talk like if the whole SM T1 roster was Tacs and Scouts. Devs are one of the if not the best T1 setup team and AM are extremely good as well. SM are fine imo and don't need any more buffs.

[Dullahan]

I wish they were 500 again.

[Dark Riku]

I wish they were 500 again.

No.

[saltychipmunk]

If we compare them to csm, yes they have kracken bolts and yes they have slightly better hp and damage. BUT they do not get anything close to the synergy gifted too the csm via chaos worship. Csm + worship = more cost effective unit than tacs.

So you want a single unit to be more cost-effective than two other units synergyzing? Also they only benefit from Tzeench and Nurgle worship.

more? who ever said more? I want to bring them up to the level of strikes and csm, not surpass. and you under estimate the power of chaos lord worship, being able to quickly tie up units saves hp on the charge in and protects your 2nd tic on the charge in better.

Tics are hilariously over performing. they always have. But I have accepted that as a core point of chaos. a race trait. scouts on the other hand do next too nothing UNTIL you sink more money into them.

I could write a thread about buffing non upgraded scouts. but i would prefer to talk about tacs instead.

If we compare them to strikes. Strikes have better ranged damage (prior to kraken bolts), better burst but more importantly they have that melee special. I feel it is the presence of that melee proficiency which justifies that extra 50 req on strikes.

Just because SS are overpowered doesn't mean we should make Tacs OP as well.

SS are not op. the bro cap is. big difference there. Strikes pay for their t1 prowess by sacrificing their t2+ scaling efficiency and that extra 50 req..

2 non upgraded scouts are the worst unit in the game in a stand up fight. they almost have the lowest damage lack an active ability and they have the lowest hp. Unlike heretics and even ist (which have high dps numbers and burst potential) the scouts don't pull any weight in a standup fight prior to upgrades this leave the burden squarely on the tacs which are not better than strikes and are much weaker than tic supported csm.

And then you upgrade them and they become on of the best support units in the game, while heretics lose any relevance in T2 outside of worship and ISTs get overshadowed by GK HI. Scouts maintain their relevance with grenades, countering melee or bleeding models from range.

After a ridiculous amount of investment.. sure ill give you that one. if i invested an asms worth of money on a t1 unit i too would think they would do well. But that is not the point. upgraded scouts are not the issue here.

also ist are great in t2 since they get two forms of plasma and 2 forms of disruption so no idea where you get overshadowed from.

tics do fall off true. but what they give before that point is truly massive.

the end result is that sm is slightly less potent in the opening match up than every other race. furthermore unlike tic worship or melee prowess the tac kraken bolts are dependent entirely on the presence of heavy infantry making their one main perk the most situational of the bunch.

You talk like if the whole SM T1 roster was Tacs and Scouts. Devs are one of the if not the best T1 setup team and AM are extremely good as well. SM are fine imo and don't need any more buffs.

You talk as if devs are t1. they are not. they are t1.5 along with every other power cost unit in the game.
The match up I am explicitly referring too is that very early req base encounter that MIGHT have 1 upgrade thrown in there.

[Paradise Lost]

more? who ever said more? I want to bring them up to the level of strikes and csm, not surpass. and you under estimate the power of chaos lord worship, being able to quickly tie up units saves hp on the charge in and protects your 2nd tic on the charge in better.

Tics are hilariously over performing. they always have. But I have accepted that as a core point of chaos. a race trait. scouts on the other hand do next too nothing UNTIL you sink more money into them.

I could write a thread about buffing non upgraded scouts. but i would prefer to talk about tacs instead.

First off, that only really saves health for melee units, and only against the specific squad they are charging. Tzeench and Nurgle worship are useful for your whole army, be it melee or ranged. Khorne worship, while not useless, is objectively worse. And Heretics do not over-perform. They have to fulfill a larger role because CSM are the worst power-armoured T1 unit that becomes the best in T2. It's weird, but it's the way Chaos plays. And Tics are incredibly squishy even with upgrades, if not because Relic decided to make Chaos a worship-oriented race they wouldn't be half as useful. So my point is that they do so many things because they are the backbone of any Chaos army. SM can afford playing without scouts, but losing heretics and not replacing them effectively cripples your fighting power.

SS are not op. the bro cap is. big difference there. Strikes pay for their t1 prowess by sacrificing their t2+ scaling efficiency and that extra 50 req..

SS are OP in T1 because they have no weaknesses. They have more health and do more damage in both ranged and melee than their counterparts, and can even tank jump squads for a while because of their high melee skill. In T2 they're still useful because their psycannons absolutely shred infantry, it's late T2 and T3 where they start losing relevance. You could argue that this fact makes them 'balanced', but being OP in T1 and UP in T2/T3 is not what I would call 'balanced'.

After a ridiculous amount of investment.. sure ill give you that one. if i invested an asms worth of money on a t1 unit i too would think they would do well. But that is not the point. upgraded scouts are not the issue here.

also ist are great in t2 since they get two forms of plasma and 2 forms of disruption so no idea where you get overshadowed from.

tics do fall off true. but what they give before that point is truly massive.

Because ISTs are only a secondary damage source while upgraded BC, Terminator Librarian and other GK T2 units fulfill primary support and damage roles. Nothing compared to Scouts, who keep their roles as blob/jump squad/HI counters. But hey, the way I see it is that it's just how these armies work. They're all flexible units, but they are useful in different tiers and in different ways. Scouts will excel at support from T1.5 onward, Tics are almost essential in T1 but become almost irrelevant in T2, and ISTs start off as a secondary damage source and stay that way throughout the game.

You talk as if devs are t1. they are not. they are t1.5 along with every other power cost unit in the game.
The match up I am explicitly referring too is that very early req base encounter that MIGHT have 1 upgrade thrown in there.

Unupgraded scouts are still useful, their high speed makes them excellent shadow-capping units. They are also as cheap as heretics. But they're not meant to be the main SM fighting force, they are a dedicated support unit and you can still use them as secondary damage source before T1.5.

[saltychipmunk]

1 csm are also cheaper, which is why their stats are inferior. their inferior stats would be a downside, if not for that fact.

2 ss , that is really only an issue because they cost the same as tacs, which i want to change. but comparing them to csm? again csm are cheaper and are supported by tics. I wont say one is better than the other , because as you have pointed out , the type of tic worship available to you does factor in.

3 ist can do almost 30 plasma dps and have a suppression ability. considering their cost that is pretty damn good. I will concede to you that their actual leader upgrade (not the awesome dude with a super chainsaw) is lacking.


4 you do realize you listed every good point about them that does not matter in a stand up fight right? ninja capping is not a stand up fight. running away very fast is not a stand up fight. unless they are being chased around a wide open map by a bunch of hormagaunts or slugga boys and have 5 minutes to kite said melee units non upgraded scouts are not good in a stand up fight.

I wont debate their merits as a capping unit. but again that is not the point

[Paradise Lost]

1. Agreed.
2. But in that case, wouldn't it make more sense to just make SS more expensive? I mean there's not much you can do against SS spam in T1. I mean CSM in T1 are meant to be used in synergy with the rest of the Chaos army, while Tacs are tankier and have a greater T1 impact (and can still benefit from certain buffs out of the gate). SS are pretty much the Mary Sue version of Tacs. Tankier, adaptable, do more damage and still recieve buffs from the BC for the same price.

4. Because scouts are not meant to engage other units in a stand up fight! It's like saying the Manticore underperforms because it can't beat a Zoantrope in a straight fight. They're meant for support, not front-line combat. Tacs and ASM are supposed to tank most of the damage while scouts support with snipers, grenades, or suppressing melee units. This pretty much what they do in the fluff.

[Tex]

wtf? 400 req tacs... plz

Next thing you know, scouts will have crazy regen and ASM will only cost 450 req...

[Black Relic]

if Tacs cost less then their cost to reinforce will also be affected. Sm are already hard to bleed making them bleed less when they actually do drop a model is excessive. Plus 2 tac opening in tier one will be more common. I mean they can tank reasonable well, they can cap 50% faster, they can bash power with flamer upgrade, they can put pressure on HI and SHI via Plasma gun (and kraken bolts vs HI) and put pressure on vehicles with the missile launcher. And they don't have the keep that weapon, they can switch it out. They have the TSKNF ability which can help them cap under fire or disrupted a melee superiority unit (which btw the serg has a special attack override while this ability is active). Then if you want to have one soft counter to everything on the map you can have it via Sternguard vets. What unit can do all that and still be flexible?

This game doesn't rely on stand alone fights. It relies on synergy. You cannot give an argument on lowering a cost of a t1 unit without looking at the repercussions for that change. And this equals less bleed, faster gens, an easier heavy t1 and faster t2. CSM cost 400 req for another reason. Or at least id like to think this. They cost 400 req because how much heretics tend to bleed. If CSM costed 450 req and heretic bleed as they do Chaos t1 would be a disaster from an economic standpoint.

[saltychipmunk]

1. Agreed.
2. But in that case, wouldn't it make more sense to just make SS more expensive? I mean there's not much you can do against SS spam in T1. I mean CSM in T1 are meant to be used in synergy with the rest of the Chaos army, while Tacs are tankier and have a greater T1 impact (and can still benefit from certain buffs out of the gate). SS are pretty much the Mary Sue version of Tacs. Tankier, adaptable, do more damage and still recieve buffs from the BC for the same price.

4. Because scouts are not meant to engage other units in a stand up fight! It's like saying the Manticore underperforms because it can't beat a Zoantrope in a straight fight. They're meant for support, not front-line combat. Tacs and ASM are supposed to tank most of the damage while scouts support with snipers, grenades, or suppressing melee units. This pretty much what they do in the fluff.

2 possible, Though 500 req strikes wont change the fact that they will beat tacs or csm in the first match up regardless. Moot point i suppose.

4 and that is why i don't want to talk about scouts. I understand exactly why they are how they are. But that doesn't change the fact that because of that trait sm are compelled to spend more money than other races to upgrade said scouts (or buy a second tac) to achieve better results in said stand up fights.


@relic

Woah Woah Woah there fella slow down. keep to early t1. yes they can cap fast and yes the 2x tac opener would be more common (which is EXACTLY what i am going for )

but all that other stuff you mentioned happens anyway. people do get 2 tacs often. Not as an opener .. but they do tend to get more than one tac. especially if they don't get more than 1 scout.

So all of that t2 stuff and even the bit about the flamer is not a huge deal.

As for the heretic bit. heretics bleed but they are also dirt cheap because of it. they are after all a 600 hp unit for 210 req. in terms of hp to cost heretics are actually quite excellent. csm are 400 req because csm are weaker stat wise.


I see what you did there Tex , your point is taken rest assured

[Tex]

After reading this thread I decided to sink some time into SM. I'm still not even close to where I want to be skill wise, but with what I'm doing, having an extra 50 req would just become ridiculous.

I mean steel rain is now a very viable T1 option, and it is incredibly hard to counter when done correctly. Tacs are so damned resilient, and kraken bolts does make a huge difference in T1.

I vote absolutely against this suggestion

[bibotot]

So This is probably an unoriginal concept but i think it is something worth looking at (again? maybe?)

Why dont we make tacs 400.

Why?

1 better relationship between tacs , csm and strikes. currently tacs are the weakest of the three. Not by much mind you , but they are the clear losers.

If we compare them to csm, yes they have kracken bolts and yes they have slightly better hp and damage. BUT they do not get anything close to the synergy gifted too the csm via chaos worship. Csm + worship = more cost effective unit than tacs.

If we compare them to strikes. Strikes have better ranged damage (prior to kraken bolts), better burst but more importantly they have that melee special. I feel it is the presence of that melee proficiency which justifies that extra 50 req on strikes.

When looking at tacs however, they do not get the cost effective synergy of the csm / heretic combo nor do they gain the versatility of being able to hold their ground in melee against low melee skill melee units. they just get kraken bolts


2 non upgraded scouts are the worst unit in the game in a stand up fight. they almost have the lowest damage lack an active ability and they have the lowest hp. Unlike heretics and even ist (which have high dps numbers and burst potential) the scouts don't pull any weight in a standup fight prior to upgrades this leave the burden squarely on the tacs which are not better than strikes and are much weaker than tic supported csm.


the end result is that sm is slightly less potent in the opening match up than every other race. furthermore unlike tic worship or melee prowess the tac kraken bolts are dependent entirely on the presence of heavy infantry making their one main perk the most situational of the bunch.

This is of course my opinion .

Just saying, always prioritize on killing the worshipers before anything else, with exception to Khorne worship where you should pull back and focus fire on the Chaos Lord. Heretics are flimsy and will drop quickly.

[Sub_Zero]

EXCUSE ME. But to damage worshiping heretics you have to get closer. If you get closer they stop doing that and back away WHILE your units are exposed to CSM ranged damage and the hero.

[^Triumph]

EXELLENT IDEA! Lets make the strongest race (if u know how 2 play) even better by making tacs cheaper a unit that its hard 2 bleed caps fast as hell its hard to be supressed bla bla bla so more people will just triple or double sm in team games and win not by skill but for a yeepee yeepee yaaay steam roller ball that eats everything they meet infront

[Bahamut]

just a big FYI... Kraken bolts ONLY AFFECTS DAMAGE TO HEAVY_INFANTRY ARMOR TYPE

Kraken bolts are NOT a 20% flat damage increase.... neither commander, vehicle, light infantry or even SHI are affected by kraken bolts

[Asmon]

Or perhaps they might be, and you don't know it...

[Dark Riku]

...

You want to know the game better before you start stating anything in the balance Section.
Do you know how much a tac model or any model costs to reinforce for SM's? Kill just a couple and the bleed can become a very big hamper for the SM player. Use the right units or combination to deal with the situation at hand, meaning: don't throw a single DA squad verus tacs in cover.
Tacs aren't more difficult to suppress than any other unit.
I'd suggest you play some SM's yourself, preferably in 1v1, that way you will get a better understanding and see what works agaisnt them.
Because I get the impression you are only doing teamgames and have developed a very misguided understanding of the game.

Or perhaps they might be, and you don't know it...

What are you even referring to here Asmon? Because it makes no sense.
If you are referring to the Kraken Rounds then I'll have to disappoint you because Bahamut is right about that one.

[^Triumph]

Riku any good player in this game will do better playing space marine than its main race for 1 single thing they are SO (in mayus lol!) easy to be played and in fact I would rly love to see sm totally nerfed in a intended way just to make sure people play other races Im tired about playing with people that the only thing they do is snowballing and win by pressing 1 key. And about playing 1 v 1 I rarely do but well thats not the point game should be balanced in all the ways u play it. Not just in 1 v 1

[Bahamut]

if SM are easy to play then what about chaos?

[Dark Riku]

Riku any good player in this game will do better playing space marine than its main race for 1 single thing they are SO (in mayus lol!) easy to be played and in fact I would rly love to see sm totally nerfed in a intended way just to make sure people play other races Im tired about playing with people that the only thing they do is snowballing and win by pressing 1 key. And about playing 1 v 1 I rarely do but well thats not the point game should be balanced in all the ways u play it. Not just in 1 v 1

Your first statement simply isn't true. It actually makes me chuckle you think that
Most people play SM's because they are the 40K poster boys. Not because of any balance reasons.
If people win by snowballing and pressing only 1 key then you are doing something very wrong.
This has more to do with you learning how to play and learning how the game works than with any balance issue.

[^Triumph]

Its actually fun that u say that when I got u as eldar and you were yealling about who the fuck I was sm are easy 2 use and thats known like the sun shines cheers =)

[Jes]

If you are referring to the Kraken Rounds then I'll have to disappoint you because Bahamut is right about that one.

Agreed, come on people do some research before making such claims.

Kraken Bolts' relevant start_self_action: