Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
User avatar
Oddnerd
Level 4
Posts: 727
Joined: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 1:50 am

Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 21 Oct, 2015 9:46 pm

Hey all, I have a general balance question about races that favour numbers over quality. It is easy to see why having fewer models but more HP/armour is good against AOE abilities and generally makes microing easier, but what are the disadvantages? It is very easy to see how this game punishes spreading your squads HP among a large number of models, but what situations might reward an army with a high model count? The only situation that comes to mind for me is fighting against high damage/low speed weapons like sniper rifles. Are there any other more subtle ways in which quantity is superior to quality?

EDIT - I should add that abilities which drain a %HP rather than a flat amount might be disproportionately effective against high HP/armour armies.
User avatar
Asmon
Level 4
Posts: 890
Joined: Mon 29 Apr, 2013 8:01 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Asmon » Wed 21 Oct, 2015 10:37 pm

In addition to what you've already mentioned, reinforcement costs are in average much cheaper for high model count squads, especially for IG and Nids that get these 2 or 3-at-a-time reinforcement in T2. It helps against melee as the squad is harder to wipe and can keep capturing points, repairing or building structures despite of special attacks. And ofc it synergizes very well with some abilities, which often comes from game design (but not always, ToN on heretics for instance).
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby saltychipmunk » Thu 22 Oct, 2015 1:04 pm

advantages to low model count squads

1 more durability on individual models means they can take more punishment before suffering model losses
2 less damage from aoe

minor advantages, obviously buildings favor low model counts
can fit more of a squad behind cover
can avoid aoes better
less pathing issues since high model squads can spread out and get stuck till they come back together (so can low model but it happens less often)



disadvantages of low model squads
1 on average far less damage to cost ratios. high model squads tend to do far more damage for their cost than low model squads
2 specifically vulnerable to weapons that do a ton of single target damage but little aoe damage such as snipers or heavily buffed, slow hitting, melee weapons such as the warboss power claw.

minor disadvantages
gain less from abilities that offer fixed numerical bonuses per model rather than per squad .. such as heals.


everything else is not really an advantage or disadvantage. most models in the game have reinforce costs proportional to their purchase price and model count with some minor variation. a tac reinforces for around 4-5 hormagaunts but you can buy nearly 2 full hormagaunt squads for 1 tac squad. so the difference in reinforce cost is 1-4 vs 1-3 which is good but not huge.

However one cant stress enough how useful those two main advantages are .


Really in this game there are no good advantages to numbers over quality. quality is always always better. however high model squads tend to have other perks that don't necessarily relate too their model count.

for example .. most high model squads are also cheaper and tend to cost less pop in total take that horma squad. since you can get 2 for 1 tac you get an extra squad over the tac to tie units up or ninja cap.

this would not be true if say hormagaunts were 450 but their stats were doubled. they would still have more models but alot of options are lost by losing 2 squads .
User avatar
HiveSpirit
Level 2
Posts: 153
Joined: Tue 28 Jul, 2015 2:34 am

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby HiveSpirit » Thu 22 Oct, 2015 2:44 pm

Low model units have a happy hours every time theres cover nearby, high model units cry 90% of the time.

Like, if i really want yellow cover for two termagants broods in t2, i can attack ground 20 times with a zoan, that would make certain to recieve yellow cover. Ofcourse some smurfs or alike would just walk up to the green cover close by and get 58,4% effectivley more hp. Bleed incomming! ><
Interested in Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade (FAQ)? Register with this link to get 4,000 RTP's for free.
Support EC with a Sub/ Vote/ Up/ Hype at: Reddit , mmorpg twitter.com/40kcrusade youtube.com/channel/UCxH-BQF2CRQV6lXTf41xEeg
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Nurland » Thu 22 Oct, 2015 6:36 pm

More models also translates into more melee attacks that translates into more melee specials.

Quite a few aoe abilities do extra damage to (S)HI. Mainly grenades, artillery, doomblast, doombolts and psychic field. Paroxysm does % of max hp so it hurts low model stuff bad as well.

Low model squads generally bleed less models but tend to cost more upkeep to compensate on top of the higher reinforce costs.

Unlucky early model losses like dropping a tac model at 700 hp are extremely painful for low model count squads

Both have advantages and disadvantages.
#noobcodex
linkthestink
Level 1
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 31 Aug, 2015 7:10 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby linkthestink » Thu 22 Oct, 2015 7:44 pm

The main thing that no one has said yet is that low model counts do more dps. You might think, "That's not true upgraded terms do WAY more dps than a tac squad!" However whenever you lose a model you lose damage, so high health models like tacs get to stick around longer and do more damage over all. The more health you have the more damage you get to dish out because you can stick around longer. Which is mainly why Terminators are so scary. They deal decent damage and such, but the real kicker is they NEVER DIE.

This is actually a proven thing in RPG's. If you have enough health so that you don't have to weave in and out of combat constantly not trying to get hit you do more damage even if your character deals less than half of what the other guy does.

Hopefully this makes sense to you.
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby saltychipmunk » Thu 22 Oct, 2015 8:11 pm

they do more damage over a long period of time since they canstay longer , but they dont do more dps. you might want to change that. otherwise fundamentally you are describing one of the core issues of game balance in team games .

technically speaking most of those high model squads are statistically inferior to those low model ones and rely almost completely on minimizing the strengths of said low models squads and maximizing their vulnerabilities .


for example not only do tacs have fewer models than termagaunts, but they also have almost double the hit points , double the damage (over non upgraded termagants) and they have the heavy infantry damage type which effectively doubles their hitpoints again vs pierce damage.

in t1 pierce damage battles is basically a 600 hp 8 model squad vs a 2000 hp 3 model. it is not even close. but almost every melee damage type happens to do full damage to or bonus damage to heavy infantry. plus you can get 2 gaunt squads to 1 tac so 1 ties the tac up while doing full damage to it while the other supports.

however once you get a ton of units on the field it gets too difficult to tie up all the low model squads and minimize their strengths . once this happens the rather massive gap in statistics between the high model squads and low model squads takes center stage and BAM your generic as hell 3 player heavy infantry tac blobs are borne.

it is really obvious when using units like storm boyz which can literally jump , land retreat and die with in seconds in this kind of situation.
linkthestink
Level 1
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon 31 Aug, 2015 7:10 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby linkthestink » Thu 22 Oct, 2015 8:14 pm

Whoops yes that's what I meant damage over the engagement not DPS.
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 3082
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 22 Oct, 2015 11:09 pm

Try to disregard the ridiculous notion that the low model squads are always better off because they are not.
Multiple reasons have already been stated above.
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby saltychipmunk » Fri 23 Oct, 2015 12:59 pm

Ok, i will admit i did not choose my words correctly when i said that.
User avatar
Asmon
Level 4
Posts: 890
Joined: Mon 29 Apr, 2013 8:01 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Asmon » Fri 23 Oct, 2015 1:53 pm

Nurland wrote:More models also translates into more melee attacks that translates into more melee specials.


When talking about squads this is false as the melee attacker has every model attacking regardless of the size of its target, except vs single entities and high-count-model squads like horma or tics.
User avatar
Crewfinity
Level 4
Posts: 712
Joined: Tue 03 Dec, 2013 2:06 am

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 23 Oct, 2015 4:18 pm

i dont think nurland was referring to some models standing around out of melee range when he made that comment. i think he was talking more about the phenomenon that when you have for example 5 banshee models fighting 3 asm models, once each model attacks once the banshees will have had 6 chances to proc a special attack, whereas asm only had 3. so with equal melee skill its better to have more models making attacks, and therefore more chances of specials.
User avatar
Asmon
Level 4
Posts: 890
Joined: Mon 29 Apr, 2013 8:01 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Asmon » Fri 23 Oct, 2015 11:15 pm

Alright then.
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Nurland » Sat 24 Oct, 2015 10:28 am

Idd. I was referring to what Jewfinity said. Suppose I could have been a bit more specific but I usually browse forums on phone so writing detailed posts is a pain :)
#noobcodex
Bahamut
Level 4
Posts: 578
Joined: Fri 27 Sep, 2013 12:58 am

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby Bahamut » Sat 24 Oct, 2015 2:29 pm

why is this thread on the balance forum?

the main thing with low model count and high model count is what type of AoE abilities they are vulnerable to.. for example, grenades arent a issue against high model count, but electric armor and noxious cloud are, where was low model count suffer greatly from concentrated aoe attacks like zoanthrope hits, pdev and sonic blasters
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Advantages and disadvantages of having numbers over quality

Postby saltychipmunk » Mon 26 Oct, 2015 11:22 am

well that is a rather blunt way of discounting all those other perks already mentioned. I dont know about you but having idiot models sticking out of cover leads too model losses just as often. little less than a cloud . lot more than shock armor


plus technically low model squads do not suffer as greatly from concentrated attacks like thropes and p-devs. i have yet to see either of those unbuffed to one shot any low model squad that didn't already have the hp per model ratios of a high model squad , seen plenty of that happening to high model squads however.

most of the time high model squads will take instant losses from artillery where as most low model squads will be critically injured but not suffer losses. that is a huge difference.


Now under buffed damage sources you can argue that is different since in both cases a squad wipe is entirely possible and most low model squads cost more.

Return to “Balance Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests