Commander Sidearms

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Phoenix
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Commander Sidearms

Postby Phoenix » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 2:17 pm

A while back the Apothecary's and Force Commander's boltpistol damage was increased to encourage more stance switching and "make commanders feel alot more different in their weapon arsenal and how they can approach certain skirmishes, rather than be linear in their approach".
Generally I support this idea but certain commanders still have such small range DPS that the pay off of using range stance is rather small. Down below I listed every starting sidearm in the game (numbers are taken from the codex):


  1. Lord Commissar 17.85 DPS
  2. Apothecary 16.05 DPS
  3. Force Commander 16.05 DPS
  4. Chaos Lord 14.58 DPS
  5. Warlock 13.51 DPS (no FOTM)
  6. Warboss 10 DPS
  7. Inquisitor 7.78 DPS (plasma_pvp)
  8. Chaos Sorceror 7.3 DPS
  9. Farseer 2.47 DPS

Maybe it is time to give some of the bottom performers a DPS increase on their starting range weapons?
Thoughts and opinions on the topic are appreciated. :P
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Dark Riku
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 2:36 pm

No thanks.

The WB destroys every cover he gets to anyway and does slightly more melee damage than for example the FC, let alone the Apo.
Wouldn't be exactly fluffy either, Orks have terrible aim.
Inquisitor is strong enough as is already, and it's plasma damage.
Chaos Sorcerer has doombolts as a starting ability, he does not need a ranged damage pistol boost.
Farseer already has all these different perks (sight range!) and boosts the damage of a squad around her.
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Cyris
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Cyris » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 3:47 pm

Agree with Riku except for the FS. A damage bump to 7-10 or so would be fine imo.

BC was missed from the list, added below.

Spike vs sustained damage is a big part also, it helps some weapons peel models more frequently then others. Consider the BC who deals 15 damage per hit at a constant rate of .7s, to the FC who deals 30 damage per hit every 1.5s or the CL dealing a 2s burst of 50 damage with a 1s cooldown.

Range is a big part of these also, as they are very unique:

BC 15.78 DP - Range 38
Lord Commissar 17.85 DPS - Range 22
Apothecary 16.05 DPS - Range 22
Force Commander 16.05 DPS - Range 22
Chaos Lord 14.58 DPS - Range 38
Warlock 13.51 DPS (no FOTM) - Range 38
Warboss 10 DPS - Range 49
Inquisitor 7.78 DPS (plasma_pvp) - Range 22
Chaos Sorceror 7.3 DPS - Range 22
Farseer 2.47 DPS - Range 22

Basically, some are short range pistols, some are more like full ranged weapons, and the WB is a sniper rifle for some reason, heh.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Torpid » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 3:52 pm

Dark Riku wrote:No thanks.

The WB destroys every cover he gets to anyway and does slightly more melee damage than for example the FC, let alone the Apo.
Wouldn't be exactly fluffy either, Orks have terrible aim.
Inquisitor is strong enough as is already, and it's plasma damage.
Chaos Sorcerer has doombolts as a starting ability, he does not need a ranged damage pistol boost.
Farseer already has all these different perks (sight range!) and boosts the damage of a squad around her.


The FC and apo should lose it too following this wishy-washy logic:

The force commander's is strong enough as it is - he is a melee commander anyway and he should be in melee using battlecry spamming special attacks so he doesn't need a ranged damage buff.

The apothecary definitely doesn't as he has heal to compensate for his low damage and many other different perks (heal aura!) by default. Besides if he wants to do ranged damage he can go customised storm bolter.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 3:59 pm

I do not list every reason I have for my opinion here as it would take hours to write.
I also have the opinion that SM's are lacking and that the apothecary most definitely needs some love.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Torpid » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 4:03 pm

Cyris wrote:Agree with Riku except for the FS. A damage bump to 7-10 or so would be fine imo.

BC was missed from the list, added below.

Spike vs sustained damage is a big part also, it helps some weapons peel models more frequently then others. Consider the BC who deals 15 damage per hit at a constant rate of .7s, to the FC who deals 30 damage per hit every 1.5s or the CL dealing a 2s burst of 50 damage with a 1s cooldown.

Range is a big part of these also, as they are very unique:

BC 15.78 DP - Range 38
Lord Commissar 17.85 DPS - Range 22
Apothecary 16.05 DPS - Range 22
Force Commander 16.05 DPS - Range 22
Chaos Lord 14.58 DPS - Range 38
Warlock 13.51 DPS (no FOTM) - Range 38
Warboss 10 DPS - Range 49
Inquisitor 7.78 DPS (plasma_pvp) - Range 22
Chaos Sorceror 7.3 DPS - Range 22
Farseer 2.47 DPS - Range 22

Basically, some are short range pistols, some are more like full ranged weapons, and the WB is a sniper rifle for some reason, heh.


This is a more meaningful post and clearly indicates a sound basis for buffing the so called 'pistol' sidearms - the range 22 ones. I say, given the poor range, they ought to do more dps, no? Just as a basic principle. Then we look at specific examples and see whether or not it applies:

Lord Commissar - yeah, sure he can have it. Bleeding is what IG are all about and the LC is the bleedy, tanky melee hero of IG.

Apothecary - yeah, why not, he is hardly OP, give him it.

FC - Same deal as LC basically - it isn't like he bleeds too much as it is, I think him being more of a bleeder is fine in the terms of balance, in fact I think it is better for him as a hero.

CS - Doesn't need as large a buff as he isn't as inherently gimped as the apo and honestly he is more of a support hero, the apo sure, he heals and is supportive in that way but he can do well running aroud just with asm or 1 tac, the CS needs to be blobbing with his army to be optimal. Give him 11dps perhaps?

FS - Farseer does have support abilities but I view her much like the apo in that she can be quite good running with solo squads, just a banshee say, or a shuri, or even on her own with fortune/doombringer. I also think she needs a buff as she's one of the worst heroes in 1v1 atm and definitely the worst eldar hero (her t1 is too weak and t1 is too influential in the current meta for her strong t2 to save her). I think a massive buff to ~14dps would be justified.

Inquisitor - As Toilailee has argued himself before in reference to the power sword purchase on the FC, a plasma weapon in t1 is no better than a bolt weapon against most races. You don't aim to bleed tacs with your hero anyway, or csm, or warriors, unless they have an upgraded weapon. Tics, scouts, gaunts, all ork t1 units, ig t1 units and eldar t1 units you do. Plasma is not a good thing. I'd take piercing damage over it any day on my initial side arm even for the same dps. Furthermore, she cannot and should not be as good as the LC because she isn't the tanky melee hero that bleeds everything - she's more of an offensive controlling hero. But I still think her chasing potential with melee weapons is overly crappy, especially when she upgrades to the holy brazier. I think she should get a buff to her plasma pistol to 11dps. Whether that be by default or after getting the holy brazier I dunno. I'm aware a buff to the holy brazier is hardly what is called for atm but I think we all know that the reason why it is such a strong wargear is not due to any inherent stat changes it causes but rather holy pyre being too strong as an ability.

I don't think the longer ranged sidearms need a change.

Dark Riku wrote:I do not list every reason I have for my opinion here as it would take hours to write.
I also have the opinion that SM's are lacking and that the apothecary most definitely needs some love.


Well I can appreciate that as it really does take a lot of time and one must question whether or not really it is worth it.

That said, what do you think to my response? Is the original premise justifiable? Are the specific arguments okay or do they need further elaboration?

Secondly, my only problem with your original post is just that really it is rather meaningless. As far as I'm concerned you may well have just said "no, I don't really care for such changes" - your reasons were so arbitrary that they were barely reasons at all imo. I wouldn't want people to find themselves confused as to how such a wise player such as yourself would be making arguments which seem to them to carry no weight (them thinking why don't I get it???) but really you're just being too lazy to properly elaborate on your reasoning :P
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Dark Riku
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 4:38 pm

Yes, I have grown "lazy" with my responses because in the past they were mostly either ignored or the threads went to shitter because reasons...
I share my own opinion and thoughts still instead. Do with that as you wish Torpid...

Giving the INQ more ranged dps is not fine, poor CSM, tacs, etc won't know what hit them.
Atlas

Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Atlas » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 4:39 pm

This is actually a super interesting thread. Some of these stats seem way out of wack with how you would think a hero would play. Range 49 for WB sidearm?
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby The_Corniflox » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 5:19 pm

Orkz haz best dakka skillz
twitch.tv/corni_flox

really really rusty right now :D
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby SiesmicSquall » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 5:34 pm

Played the original dow2 casually off and on since beta; Not sure if my opinion matters much but it seemed to me that sidearms for all units were almost negligible in the sense that if we replaced all stock sidearm damage with 0 it wouldn't have a significant effect on gameplay or balance.

For me, personally, sidearm damage is most effectively used as a kiting punishment tool; This where you get the most sustained bursts off, but will still rarely peal off any models when pursuing. (This effect is more prominent on slower chasing units, like CL,BC and WB and maybe the exception). The kiting player will just usually consider the chances of the chasing player landing a melee attack, not really consider the stats of the sidearm (unless its upgraded).

I'm all up for upping the sidearm damage across the board. Depending on by how much it might make sense to lower the +30% retreat damage as the sidearm damage buff could balance out the ranged vs melee unit disparity.

Anyway, just my 2 cents.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Forestradio » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 6:10 pm

I'm going to be blunt here, can we stop buffing things into ridiculous levels of overpoweredness and actually focus on fixing the broken shit?

Sidearms are fine and don't need changes, stop asking for heroes to turn into wtfpwn machines, it goes totally against how dow2 works, just because a hero can't be a-moved into the enemy army and then retreated half an hour later without any danger of going down doesn't make it up.

Talking about the fc and apo bolt pistol change from like 3 patches back like it actually completely turned around matchups... lulz all it did was draw attention to the fact that some melee heroes actually do decent ranged dps. But clever players like Noisy were already utilizing this, especially in green cover, and the extra 1-2 models you will kill off of infantry squads with the buff barely mean anything.

ServantOfTheForums wrote:a plasma weapon in t1 is no better than a bolt weapon against most races.
I must have missed the memo where everything has to be buffed just because something else is better in terms of dps...

And yeah inquisitor needs buffs she is a weak and underperforming hero with useless weapon wargears and no cheesy abilities or globals... oh wait
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Phoenix » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 6:59 pm

So on the one hand we should "stop buffing things into ridiculous levels of overpoweredness" or turn heroes into "wtfpwn machines" and on the other one the boltpistol buffs did "barely mean anything". Interesting really.

Commander Sidearms are part of the balance so its completely legitimate to discuss here. My initial post was mostly targeted to the likes of the FS and CS anyways which are far from a-move heroes and quite underplayed. I dont see how an increase of their DPS values to ~10-13 DPS is unjustified.

I wont argue with you that there are other balance issues in this mod which need changes/fixes but this thread might not be the place to discuss this.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Laplace's Demon » Mon 18 Apr, 2016 11:54 pm

The number of times I've watched one of my retreating banshee models gets shot in the back of the head and killed by the FC makes me cry. Should probs retreat those ladies sooner...
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Tinibombini » Tue 19 Apr, 2016 2:33 am

Phoenix wrote:So on the one hand we should "stop buffing things into ridiculous levels of overpoweredness" or turn heroes into "wtfpwn machines" and on the other one the boltpistol buffs did "barely mean anything". Interesting really.


Shhh...you are ruining the hyperbole with all that reading.

Seriously, I have never heard anyone complain that the sidearm changes made any heroes into "wtfpwn machines".
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Torpid » Tue 19 Apr, 2016 2:58 am

Tinibombini wrote:
Phoenix wrote:So on the one hand we should "stop buffing things into ridiculous levels of overpoweredness" or turn heroes into "wtfpwn machines" and on the other one the boltpistol buffs did "barely mean anything". Interesting really.


Shhh...you are ruining the hyperbole with all that reading.

Seriously, I have never heard anyone complain that the sidearm changes made any heroes into "wtfpwn machines".


Or that buffing the farseer's 2dps constant firing pistol of worthlessness would make her a wtfpwn machine quite akin to the warlock with his tracking specials that make his lack of FOTM vs melee units his chasing fairly irrelevant.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Forestradio » Tue 19 Apr, 2016 3:21 am

@Phoenix

Well it was not aimed at the thread specifically per se, just at the attitude being shown: "if I compare these two things side by side and this one thing is worse then it clearly needs buffs!"

Or maybe it doesn't? Maybe giving different heroes different strengths and weaknesses is actually something that is balanced and intended? Maybe some have higher/lower speed. Maybe some are focused on AoE damage, maybe some are focused on tanking, maybe some are focused on buffing. Doesn't mean that tanks need to be buffers or that AoE damage dealers need to be super quick, it just means that they perform in different ways.
I can easily make a thread that compares all the starting melee dps values of the heroes together, what would we conclude from that? That all the heroes with the lowest values on that list need buffs? That the apo/cl/wl/bc all need their starting dps buffed because clearly they have some of the lowest values, this means that they are the most up heroes!

Phoenix wrote:FS and CS anyways which are far from a-move heroes and quite underplayed
I'm aware of that, they are pretty much my favorite Chaos and Eldar heroes to play, but they aren't played because the community is quite small and set in its ways and totally incapable of moving past their cookie cutter build orders, also if we start balancing out by hero popularity then gk and nids need a gazillion buffs and sm and especially fc need a gazillion nerfs, let's not go down that path?

btw CS and FS are only underplayed cuz Tex is playing IG atm huehue, and I think he already showed in the past that these heroes don't need any buffs.

Tinibombini wrote:Seriously, I have never heard anyone complain that the sidearm changes made any heroes into "wtfpwn machines".

Just a general complaint about how some heroes function at the moment (always buy weapon X, armor Y, and accessory Z, proceed to amove), maybe this isn't the thread to mention it and if so a mod can go ahead and nuke.

ServantOfTheForums wrote:Or that buffing the farseer's 2dps constant firing pistol of worthlessness would make her a wtfpwn machine quite akin to the warlock with his tracking specials that make his lack of FOTM vs melee units his chasing fairly irrelevant.

......
............
..................
._.
you do know that warlock specials only track with MWB, right? We really gonna start comparing the most expensive t1 wargear in the game to a starting pistol?
Here's my counterargument: FS specials trigger more quickly with her default weapon than WL specials trigger with his default weapon, clearly the WL is up and needs buffs!
See how little sense that makes?
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Asmon » Tue 19 Apr, 2016 3:44 am

Guys I heard that FS default ranged DPS are quite low, and it makes me sad. Though sometimes when she chases an enemy unit with 1hp left the unit does survive and that adds something to her charm.

On a more serious note, such a thread should be concluded by things like: FC bolter is too good, or CL sidearm is OP as is every CL-related data. Wait, am I being serious?

Well, give WL fotm with a broken animation like Wraithlord brightlance's and it'll be alright.

Also, and as Forest underlined, such comparisons might be interesting but don't mean a lot. Only the WB range, if not a typo, should be decreased for it really makes no sense. Then let's move on and send Caeltos our concerns about more obvious issues.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Shas'la » Tue 19 Apr, 2016 12:09 pm

Warboss shoota range is a headscratcher, if that 49 value is correct. EKS has the standard 38 range.

As for the FS's shuriken pistol, my 0,02$ is that while 2,47 dps is pathetic and might do with some touching up, I would hesitate to buff it up to anywhere near the level of some of the other pistols. The Farseer has speed 5.5, 35dps melee, and FoF to chase units around with if necessary, which is already quice nice for a support commander. At the absolute most, I'd bring her up to par with the Sorc's 7,3dps, and that might very well be pushing it. We could go into a fair bit of detail here with regards to her T1 and gameplay in general, but I don't think a very significant change would be consistent with her design... and at the end of the day this isn't a FS thread.



Fun fact, the KNob's slugga when he's using his knife does 0,64 dps :P
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby doofyoofy » Thu 21 Apr, 2016 2:21 pm

EDIT: Moved to its own thread. - Atlas
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Toilailee » Thu 21 Apr, 2016 8:40 pm

I’m with Forest on that using a comparison of apples and oranges to demand buffs for one of them is getting old. Heroes have different roles in different armies so they’re supposed to be different and have different strengths and weaknesses. Also homogenizing everything makes the game just more boring, I’d rather some units/heroes keep their flavor.

For example in your comparison Apo and FC have the same dps. But for Apo the bolt pistol is irrelevant 98.6% of the time while the FC pistol is awesome. See the problem with comparing only their stats?


ServantOfTheForums wrote:Inquisitor - As Toilailee has argued himself before in reference to the power sword purchase on the FC, a plasma weapon in t1 is no better than a bolt weapon against most races. You don't aim to bleed tacs with your hero anyway, or csm, or warriors, unless they have an upgraded weapon.


Yes I did say that but that is in the context of my playstyle with the FC, and iirc in the context of that particular game when someone asked me why I didn’t buy it. I tend to get him the alacrity only and have him chase cappers on his own in 1s so I much prefer the bolt pistol. If I did get the power sword to smack some heavy infantry in bigger engagements I’d rather have the plasma pistol since I’d be targeting marines/warriors all the time.

I also said I prefer it cos it has one of the manliest sounds in the game. :P
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Torpid » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 1:48 am

Toilailee wrote:I’m with Forest on that using a comparison of apples and oranges to demand buffs for one of them is getting old. Heroes have different roles in different armies so they’re supposed to be different and have different strengths and weaknesses. Also homogenizing everything makes the game just more boring, I’d rather some units/heroes keep their flavor.

For example in your comparison Apo and FC have the same dps. But for Apo the bolt pistol is irrelevant 98.6% of the time while the FC pistol is awesome. See the problem with comparing only their stats?


ServantOfTheForums wrote:Inquisitor - As Toilailee has argued himself before in reference to the power sword purchase on the FC, a plasma weapon in t1 is no better than a bolt weapon against most races. You don't aim to bleed tacs with your hero anyway, or csm, or warriors, unless they have an upgraded weapon.


Yes I did say that but that is in the context of my playstyle with the FC, and iirc in the context of that particular game when someone asked me why I didn’t buy it. I tend to get him the alacrity only and have him chase cappers on his own in 1s so I much prefer the bolt pistol. If I did get the power sword to smack some heavy infantry in bigger engagements I’d rather have the plasma pistol since I’d be targeting marines/warriors all the time.

I also said I prefer it cos it has one of the manliest sounds in the game. :P


But the default inquisitor and default fc have the same role. As does brazier IQ and power sword FC. By default they both tie-up ranged squads and do nice running around solo bothering cappers, don't contribute much to main engagements (in fact the IQ does less so than the FC). With the holy pyre or power sword (and thus stronger battlecry) you get better returns on investment on the ability if you use it vs numerous enemies at once, thus you blob and in that scenario you don't need your pistol as much. It is literally the same.

More to say here in response to some other things posted here before but I lack the motivation to care to do that :L
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Forestradio » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 2:33 am

^they don't have the same role at all actually, not in the slightest, and they have different starting stats and abilities and wargears for the reasons Toilailee already said, they exist in totally different rosters and therefore should be different

And Inquisitor already overperforms to a ridiculous degree which has been pointed out many times before and shown in tournaments, both by skilled IG players and high level players of multiple races, so why should it get buffs again? Or is this just another case of double standards from the community which is fine with broken things as long as they aren't played often?
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby GuruSkippy » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 9:45 am

I'd change only 2 things :
- warboss range to 38. Not sure how someone can defend this 49 range. Lol, even his enhanced kustom shoota is 38 range.

-farseer.
About farseer, I can understand why some guys want a buff, and why others don't.
why people want buff ? hurr durr, 2.47dps, are you kidding me ? buuuuuuuuufffffffff
why people don't ? FS have 5.5 speed + FoF while all other melee heros with a fireonthemoving pistol have 5 speed only. So she can chase retreating units longer than other heros. AND, she also can guide herself (I'm maybe wrong on this one?).
So just a buff to 4.94 dps, and see how it goes.
PS: but to be honest, I think I haven't met a single FS in 1v1 since I returned one month ago. So... I could be wrong.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Kvn » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 6:20 pm

GuruSkippy wrote:-farseer.
About farseer, I can understand why some guys want a buff, and why others don't.
why people want buff ? hurr durr, 2.47dps, are you kidding me ? buuuuuuuuufffffffff
why people don't ? FS have 5.5 speed + FoF while all other melee heros with a fireonthemoving pistol have 5 speed only. So she can chase retreating units longer than other heros. AND, she also can guide herself (I'm maybe wrong on this one?).
So just a buff to 4.94 dps, and see how it goes.
PS: but to be honest, I think I haven't met a single FS in 1v1 since I returned one month ago. So... I could be wrong.


To be fair, Fleet also reduces the ranged damage of the squad by 80%, so it pretty much reduces her pew pew ability to nonexistence.

She can use Guide on herself, but since it's a percentage based buff, it does very little for her ranged attack seeing as she has such low dps.

Also, I don't think anybody here is saying "hurr durr buuuuufff!" Don't particularly think she needs it myself since she's not a commander who has much opportunity to chase things down to begin with, but the people asking for buffs have been making arguments based around decent ideas.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby GuruSkippy » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 7:20 pm

Kvn wrote:To be fair, Fleet also reduces the ranged damage of the squad by 80%, so it pretty much reduces her pew pew ability to nonexistence.

She can use Guide on herself, but since it's a percentage based buff, it does very little for her ranged attack seeing as she has such low dps.

Idd, it reduces ranged damage, but with FoF, she can manage to deal more melee damage. Added to a potential buff to the pistol, it can have a big impact.
And guide, on a 2.47dps gun,is not that big. But imagine it if you buff the dps to a FC level...
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Kvn » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 7:38 pm

GuruSkippy wrote:Idd, it reduces ranged damage, but with FoF, she can manage to deal more melee damage. Added to a potential buff to the pistol, it can have a big impact.
And guide, on a 2.47dps gun,is not that big. But imagine it if you buff the dps to a FC level...


And that melee damage is largely unaffected by her ranged dps. If you hit Fleet to chase after a retreating unit, you more or less sacrifice your shooting potential. By the time Fleet wears off, the targeted unit generally has accelerated beyond your Farseer's ability to chase, even with her slightly above average footspeed, meaning her pistol damage doesn't make much of an impact.

The FC is also a much tankier commander with higher killing potential and a lot of wargear that helps make him even more durable/destructive. The Farseer is incredibly fragile by comparison, meaning she's much less able to chase down a targeted unit since she'll usually either be away from the bulk of the fighting, or will be retreating sooner.

I'm not saying she needs the extra damage, or even that it should be implemented, but bringing her pistol more in line with the other commanders certainly wouldn't be the end of the world.
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Forestradio » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 7:55 pm

Actually, the opening post is incorrect, it left out HT and LA which have 0 dps pistols.

Therefore I demand that they be given a pistol in order to fix this obvious imbalance that clearly cripples their early game performance to the point where they are literally the worst 1v1 heroes in the game.

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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Torpid » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 8:37 pm

Farseer with just fortune = 35dps melee, 2.5dps roughly ranged. 4hp/s regen and 780hp. Speed 5.5

FC with just alacrity = 40dps melee, 16dps ranged 1hp/s regen and 920hp. Speed 5.5.

I think they're very similar. Right now you basically need to get doombringer if you want to use your FS in that delaying/defensive/counter-capper sort of manner and it just hurts her tbh. She's not as cost effective at all doing this as the WL with his robes/MWB is. It's all just a shame.

I think the lack of FS is definitely related to her being the weakest eldar hero atm. Most of her weakness comes from her suckiness in the early game and obvious that's a fundamental part of her character so I wouldn't totally change it - I don't expect her to be soloing stormboyz in seconds like the warlock can do in t1, but to be able to fulfill that alacrity/fc role would be MUCH appreciated as its a role I find myself putting her in quite a lot and it does work, I just feel it ought to work a little better.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
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Lichtbringer
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Lichtbringer » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 8:39 pm

We could just remove the Pistol of the Farseer, maybe give her a Spear starting weapon (and thena a not fire on the move Rangedattack that is stronger than the one right now?).

2,5 dps is just weird. (And I think it might screw with stealht, so no damage at all migth be better.)
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Torpid
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Re: Commander Sidearms

Postby Torpid » Fri 22 Apr, 2016 8:50 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Yes, and I want an apo with a thunderhammer


You guys are really just being totally ridiculous.

An apo with a 16dps pistol is good enough tyvm. He gets sanguine you know? And for very cheap too!

Maybe 14dps is too extreme for her, but she fires so consistently, i.e. not in bursts that her pistol is even worse than her dps indicates. But less than 3dps, really? How does she not warrant a sidearm buff?
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!

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