(Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Nehkrosis
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Nehkrosis » Wed 27 Mar, 2019 4:11 pm

Well something cool you could do, a Relic Plasma pistol. Nice damage, has an ability that allows it to rapid fire similar to the TMs Plasma gun, each infantry kill made during the rapid fire stage could either return Energy to the Sorcerer, or give cooldown to his other abilities.

You could also loot the Thousand Son codex for a cool name, as there's s relic pistol in there ;)
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 8:56 pm

Torpid wrote:@OP

Are you seeing why over the years we never bothered adding a new weapon for him now...?



this is why i think a simple weapon with some stats for health would be fine.

still liking the idea for a pistol weapon tho.
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Rostam
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Rostam » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 10:14 pm

that certainly sound nice, but you might never know if a bug might show up afterwards
Also i think at this point there are bigger issues at hand than a third CS weapon; although the thought of innovation is always appreciated, thumbs up!
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SOLID SQUIG
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 9:22 pm

So I was playing with some friends the other night and a idea a friend had occurred.

What if we took one of the sorcerers ability items in accessories and made it into a weapon?

Not sure what this would do balance wise but it is a idea.

Still loving the pistol idea the most though.
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boss
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby boss » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:46 pm

I did came up with an idea about a 3rd weapon for the sorc awhile back idk what they done with it, was meant to help with tanky hero's for him.
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Protagonist
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Protagonist » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 8:04 am

I recall someone requesting some of the following back around late 2014/early 2015:

A Lightning claw that didn't have splash damage but gave an ability that made a single target intangible (like bloodletters) which could be used to stop a tanky commander from being devastating for a bit or to clutch a retreat. I personally liked this idea but I recall there being some reservations with it.

Another idea that was floating around was giving him a second staff that granted massive plasma(or maybe it was melta damage?). But that idea died after a few particularly obnoxious CS replays got casted.


As an aside, I thought robes of torment increased CS health regen? Was that removed or am I just imagining things?
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby ScarlettValk » Sun 12 Apr, 2020 4:45 pm

As a personal suggestion:

T3: Staff of Tomorrow.

40 plasma damage per hit (ranged profile)

45 power melee damage per hit (melee profile)

Ability: Foresight, increases the line of sight and range of the targeted unit by 3 for 15 seconds. Can be used on allies.

Just a quick idea that came to mind, balance would probably need adjusting too.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby RedReVenge » Sun 12 Apr, 2020 6:27 pm

ScarlettValk wrote:As a personal suggestion:

T3: Staff of Tomorrow.

40 plasma damage per hit (ranged profile)

45 power melee damage per hit (melee profile)

Ability: Foresight, increases the line of sight and range of the targeted unit by 3 for 15 seconds. Can be used on allies.

Just a quick idea that came to mind, balance would probably need adjusting too.


What problems does the CS have that this item solves?
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby ScarlettValk » Sun 12 Apr, 2020 11:02 pm

RedReVenge wrote:
What problems does the CS have that this item solves?


Does an item *need* to solve a problem and not just expand the potential diversity of strategies available to a hero?

While I disagree with it needing to solve anything it can make Chaos gunlines more viable in the late game, it won't push Chaos into a ranged faction but it could help those players that want to be a little more shooty. As chaos T2, and T3 is a lot more melee focussed. Would provide some nice synergy for Plague marines for AV with the +3 LoS and +3Range on the rocket. Shooty termies become a lot more tasty and safer to use without risking any bleed (also means they outrange all other terminators). Put it on a predator and make those even more scary.

So no, it doesn't solve a problem, just makes choices more diverse into the late game.
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egewithin
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby egewithin » Mon 13 Apr, 2020 12:50 am

Okay I will try to explain it as short as possible.

1-) Sorcerer is already a god-like being in T3. Even if he needs a new wargear or a buff, that's not the T3. Probably a T1 weapon would be acceptible, but that's for another time.

2-) Chaos is not melee focused in T2 / T3. It just has great options for melee, but it also has great options for ranged builds as well. Ranged Chaos doesn't have any kind of weakness or a lack of diversity like you said. In short, you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. :D

3-) Yes, the buff you imagine can do the things you listed. But the real question is, should we give an option like that? You need some solid arguments.

4-) And this is main problem of your proposal

ScarlettValk wrote:Does an item *need* to solve a problem and not just expand the potential diversity of strategies available to a hero?


Okay then. Tomorrow, I will propose that Plague Champion should have an armor that gives him speed. Because I want him to have an option that allows him to run around like bastard, making him more diverse and versatile. This is a wrong idea anyway, but how can you say it is wrong when you are okay with making more options, without any kind of context?
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RedReVenge
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby RedReVenge » Mon 13 Apr, 2020 6:46 am

ScarlettValk wrote:
RedReVenge wrote:
What problems does the CS have that this item solves?


Does an item *need* to solve a problem and not just expand the potential diversity of strategies available to a hero?

While I disagree with it needing to solve anything it can make Chaos gunlines more viable in the late game, it won't push Chaos into a ranged faction but it could help those players that want to be a little more shooty. As chaos T2, and T3 is a lot more melee focussed. Would provide some nice synergy for Plague marines for AV with the +3 LoS and +3Range on the rocket. Shooty termies become a lot more tasty and safer to use without risking any bleed (also means they outrange all other terminators). Put it on a predator and make those even more scary.

So no, it doesn't solve a problem, just makes choices more diverse into the late game.


The main reason is because the team that works on this game is pretty thin (remember this isn't a studio). "Wish list" items need to solve problems OR the team needs a different incentive?

This isn't tabletop. All factions have a variety of both melee and range builds, so I disagree with your idea that chaos is melee oriented and that the CS needs more options.

In fact, your idea just sounds like a better version of his current warpfire staff?? Lose the warpfire ability, but gain "Guide" + better ranged attack that is also effective in melee.

If there are any changes to be made to CS, it would be to lower the DPS of doombolt. This ability is silly T1. But a lot of current players love him and would throw a fit if it gets nerfed.
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Shroom
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Shroom » Mon 13 Apr, 2020 1:18 pm

chaos IS a melee oriented race, especially in tier 1. however sorc doesnt really need a third weapon. would still be cool to have a third weapon though
ScarlettValk
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby ScarlettValk » Mon 13 Apr, 2020 4:09 pm

RedReVenge wrote:
The main reason is because the team that works on this game is pretty thin (remember this isn't a studio). "Wish list" items need to solve problems OR the team needs a different incentive?

This isn't tabletop. All factions have a variety of both melee and range builds, so I disagree with your idea that chaos is melee oriented and that the CS needs more options.

In fact, your idea just sounds like a better version of his current warpfire staff?? Lose the warpfire ability, but gain "Guide" + better ranged attack that is also effective in melee.

If there are any changes to be made to CS, it would be to lower the DPS of doombolt. This ability is silly T1. But a lot of current players love him and would throw a fit if it gets nerfed.



That comment on it not being tabletop so they have both melee and ranged builds is just flat out wrong. Chaos is a more heavily focussed melee faction. If it was the inverse of being able to do both it would be more like the tabletop.

It also isn't about the CS needing more options, it is about the CS being brought up to literally every other character in terms of choices.

As I said my idea would need balancing, I just gave a quick example. I made it as strong as I did because it comes in T3 which is already very late, in a time period of gameplay where Plasma and Power melee is useful but not crazy strong (unlike in T2). As for it being guide, I feel like you missed the part where this doesn't increase damage of the unit at all which is one of the main benefits of guide.

As for your final comment it now just seems like you are trying to hijack the thread discussing a 3rd weapon choice for CS to try and push toward a proposed nerf that you think the CS needs. Which is nothing to do with the topic at hand.
LOCALgHOST
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby LOCALgHOST » Mon 13 Apr, 2020 6:55 pm

sorc is the most fun hero in the game. all these doombolts, warp rifts, subjugation, curse of tzeench, fire Fire FIRE!!! (and of course, teleporting PHOBOS to enemy base right after it drops on your base is AWESOME.
i'll never get bored of sorc.

why he need a 3rd weapon?

p.s. "make anointed power axe T1 again!"
Tex
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Tex » Wed 15 Apr, 2020 2:07 pm

I have heard a few people complaining about doombolts with 0 cooldown, and tbh I have been the victim of it a few times as well. So here are my suggestions:

1) We could apply a cooldown to 'doombolts' and then the 3rd weapon slot could be used simply as a 'doombolts' modifier
-this fixes the issue of infinite doombolts right out of the gate, but allows for it after a power purchase
-the weapon could be made cheap... like 100-20, just enough to slow this action down a little bit
-the weapon could be some kind of "RUNE STAFF" that improves the sorc melee slightly and his ranged attack slightly.

2) We could nerf 'consume' and then use the 3rd weapon slot as a 'consume' modifier
-this would preserve the 0 cooldown on doombolts right out of the gate if that is what is preferred
-nerfed consume would give maybe half the effect it offers now
-buffed consume with item would give the same energy effect, but would maybe give a bit more hp?
-this again "fixes" the issue of infinite doom bolts out of the gate, but allows for it after a power purchase
-the weapon would be identical to the "RUNE STAFF"

3) We could nerf 'consume' slightly (factor of .7 on energy regain?) and use the 3rd weapon slot to give the sorc a weapon that drains energy and replenishes it to himself
-this weapon would compete with the flamesword for the complementary spot with vestements of the warp
-this weapon would provide an ability that saps energy from an enemy unit that has an energy bar (15 energy per second for 4 seconds?)
-this weapon would need to be slightly weaker on hit than the flame sword
-this weapon would be a big boon to the sorc in some of his harder matchups (I believe) such as Force Commander and Warlock, so it would need to be watched closely for balance.

4) We could apply a cooldown to 'doombolts' and skip using the 3rd weapon slot, and buff 'Icon of Tzeentch' by causing it to now reduce the cooldown on doombolts to 0, as well as keeping its existing ability.
-this would make 'Icon of Tzeentch' something worth buying in less of a niche capacity
-delays infinite doombolts until Tier 2
-easiest change to implement
-'Icon of Tzeentch' cost might need to be increased
PianoMan
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby PianoMan » Wed 15 Apr, 2020 3:26 pm

daily reminder that doombolts are countered by not being lazy and by pressing X, unlike grenades they do next to nothing in retreat :)
the sorc is indeed fun to play when you have 3k hours in the game and you enjoy stomping people that just installed the game
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Shroom
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Shroom » Wed 15 Apr, 2020 4:54 pm

Tex wrote:nerf doombolts

how about no
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Torpid
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Torpid » Wed 15 Apr, 2020 11:27 pm

I don't think the rate of doombolts is too much, that included assessing the consume synergy, but if anything about doombolt is OP it is just the sheer damage of a single doombolt.

I am quite indifferent about whether or not that needs nerfing though since in general CS is still incredibly hard to play at high level.
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Bruce Campbell
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Bruce Campbell » Thu 16 Apr, 2020 2:49 pm

Doombolts are a joke. Pressing X isnt a valid counter play, thats called instantly losing an engagement, losing capping potential and losing utility like worship until the tics make it back out onto the field. Theres a couple of ways you could fix bolts, either change the cooldown or the amount of energy sorc can cosume OR you could make bolts ranged based damage, so if you land a max range doombolt it gets its max damage (true reward for aiming it well or them being lazy and not moving) which in turn gives the other person more time to dodge, and closer the range the less damage it does, so you dont still get fully rewarded for throwing a 2 yard undodgeable tic deleting doombolt
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Bruce Campbell » Thu 16 Apr, 2020 2:54 pm

https://clips.twitch.tv/CorrectLivelyFlamingoTTours

Literally no heroes starting ability should be able to do that imo
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby PianoMan » Thu 16 Apr, 2020 4:16 pm

Bruce Campbell wrote:https://clips.twitch.tv/CorrectLivelyFlamingoTTours

Literally no heroes starting ability should be able to do that imo

Entirely my fault there, at the last moment you can see that the heretics moved, if I had just pressed X instead of being a dumbass they live.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Black Relic » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 4:45 pm

i want him to a staff weapon in t1 so he doesnt have to engage a melee hero. How about a mind war type ability? No damage, slows and drains energy and gives it to the sorc? But tbh thats all he should get. Nothing t3 imo.
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PianoMan
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby PianoMan » Sun 26 Apr, 2020 5:25 pm

Black Relic wrote:i want him to a staff weapon in t1 so he doesnt have to engage a melee hero. How about a mind war type ability? No damage, slows and drains energy and gives it to the sorc? But tbh thats all he should get. Nothing t3 imo.

wow a direct counter to sorc's main weakness in t1, what a great idea
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Mike » Tue 28 Apr, 2020 11:51 pm

Give him a manta style

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