Hormagaunts

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
LOCALgHOST
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Hormagaunts

Postby LOCALgHOST » Tue 17 Dec, 2019 10:11 pm

Guys we should revert speed buff back to adrenal glands. Maybe not +1 (5.5 to 6.5), maybe it should be +0.5 (6 to 6.5)

Now Tyranid play is mostly "get 3 hormas to constant genbash and mapcontrol" and you can't do anything because of infinite trades models for gens or wiping guys with 6.5 speed +3 charge speed. Even fastest units in game can't stand this on retreat. They don't need to invest at T1. Maybe HT charge/raveners. And just go T3
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boss
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby boss » Tue 17 Dec, 2019 11:20 pm

First adrenal glands never gave a speed buff, it increase charge range they always had 6.5 speed.

3 horma builds are bad after the 6 or so mins you often want to throw 1 away and just get more ravs since they are the only unit tyranids has that scales well.
Other reason why this build does well cos hormas with spore mines= can't do a whole alot for the first 4 or so mins but since our great balance leader who knows balance very well hehehehe don't want to change this what can I say.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 18 Dec, 2019 10:20 pm

boss wrote:... but since our great balance leader who knows balance very well hehehehe don't want to change this what can I say.
Nothing good apparently. Maybe you should just shut up instead of being unhelpful and obnoxious.
LOCALgHOST
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby LOCALgHOST » Thu 19 Dec, 2019 7:45 am

boss wrote:First adrenal glands never gave a speed buff, it increase charge range they always had 6.5 speed.


i mean pre-elite era in vanilla, where you could kite them before upgrade and could not - after. And it was ok. i knew that if tyra invest - he owns and i need to invest to answer new threat (wich was fair). And now they just eat all roster alive, out of the box.
PianoMan
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby PianoMan » Thu 19 Dec, 2019 5:01 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
boss wrote:... but since our great balance leader who knows balance very well hehehehe don't want to change this what can I say.
Nothing good apparently. Maybe you should just shut up instead of being unhelpful and obnoxious.

boss knows best about how tyranids work and you come here for no reason to tell him to shut up lolok
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Nurland
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby Nurland » Fri 20 Dec, 2019 6:59 am

To be fair boss is the best nid main out there. That said, his posts are often just jabs at Adila/whoever is the balance lead, which doesn't really help anyone or the balance in the slightest.
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boss
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby boss » Fri 20 Dec, 2019 11:05 am

LOCALgHOST wrote:

i mean pre-elite era in vanilla, where you could kite them before upgrade and could not - after. And it was ok. i knew that if tyra invest - he owns and i need to invest to answer new threat (wich was fair). And now they just eat all roster alive, out of the box.


In retail or vanilla however you call it they have 6.5 speed as well as elite,they always been a fast unit.


I don't even play tyranids much no more not happy with some of the changes they been getting and will get, I say what I dam well want to say about adila should never be in charge just have to look at his changes and wonder what he doing. One for sure got nothing to do with balance at all
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LOCALgHOST
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 21 Dec, 2019 7:40 pm

boss wrote:In retail or vanilla however you call it they have 6.5 speed as well as elite,they always been a fast unit.


they wasn't 6.5
6 - maybe but scouts and eldar guys ran faster. that thing i could bet. Maybe before retri, but it's 100%
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Nurland
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby Nurland » Mon 23 Dec, 2019 5:20 pm

Hormas have been 6,5 as far as I can remember in retardail and vanilla.
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LOCALgHOST
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby LOCALgHOST » Tue 24 Dec, 2019 5:15 pm

Nurland wrote:Hormas have been 6,5 as far as I can remember in retardail and vanilla.


damn why scouts kite them? they got 6.5 too
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Nurland
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby Nurland » Tue 24 Dec, 2019 6:16 pm

Dunno. I never felt scouts being good at kiting hormas.
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Telos
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby Telos » Wed 25 Dec, 2019 7:18 am

LOCALgHOST wrote:damn why scouts kite them? they got 6.5 too


Hormagaunts are particularly bad at pursuit because their attack animation requires them to stop, but a fast enough unit will get out of range before they can begin the windup so they do this funny dance of stutter stepping at units without getting the attack off, LA can have the same problem. Their footprint and pathing is also such that they spend a lot of time moving around and bumping into each other to try and attack, exacerbating the problem. The initial leap into melee helps close with kiting units, but more often prevents them from getting wipes on retreating squads.

They will eventually get off enough attacks to worry scouts, but since they're fast it's often better to give a move command past them and then attack.

Not complaining, I like Hormagaunts and new builds that use them a lot more. But they really don't scale at all after T1 so it's high risk to end the game early. If your horma/rav build doesn't pay off then you're really in the hole.
PianoMan
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby PianoMan » Wed 25 Dec, 2019 12:16 pm

Telos wrote:
LOCALgHOST wrote:damn why scouts kite them? they got 6.5 too

.

Not complaining, I like Hormagaunts and new builds that use them a lot more. But they really don't scale at all after T1 so it's high risk to end the game early. If your horma/rav build doesn't pay off then you're really in the hole.


a high speed high damage unit that forces off most ranged and bashes incredibly quickly doesn't scale?
if you play the horma rav build correctly you dont even have to end the game t1, just rush a fucking swarmlord with the advantage you have while your opponent tries to tech
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Telos
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby Telos » Wed 25 Dec, 2019 1:29 pm

PianoMan wrote:a high speed high damage unit that forces off most ranged and bashes incredibly quickly doesn't scale?


Perhaps I have a different idea of what scale means in my mind. I think of a unit that scales well as gaining utility and strength as the game progresses. Certainly gaunts still have utility beyond T1, but bashing and trying to tie up ranged squads is about the extent of it imo. If you were to lose a squad of them, at any point in the game, you kinda have to consider if they're worth getting again over Termagants or Warriors or more Ravs or just teching up. That's not a consideration you really have to make with a unit if you think it'll scale into late-game.

But maybe you think of scaling in a different way, I'm not sure. You're certainly a better player than I am Piano, so if you think hormagaunts scale better than similar units then perhaps you could explain to me how?

PianoMan wrote:if you play the horma rav build correctly you dont even have to end the game t1, just rush a fucking swarmlord with the advantage you have while your opponent tries to tech


Well, yeah, if what you mean by playing it correctly is successfully pressuring your opponent that you're able to get a massive advantage, and don't make a massive throw, then the game is over pretty early. Am I mistaken in that assessment?

Sure you don't have to end the game in T1, and your opponent can choose to play it out if that's what they want to do. But if you're constantly bashing them, forcing off their squads and have 90% of the map capped then the writing is on the wall at that point. If you choose to play it beyond that point by not getting a VP victory then you're just kind of a sadist, since it could end a lot earlier than the time to buy a swarmlord.

But if your opponent weathers the pressure and is able to tech up in good time and keep their eco, then you're in a really tough position because you have a lot of fast melee units that are forced off or wiped by pretty much any AoE and the pressure in most MU's gradually moves against you as the game goes on. I'm sure you view that as not playing it correctly, but are you saying that the horma rav build is consistently successful and reliable enough that your opponent can't counter it even if they know it's coming? I'm not disagreeing that the build is really strong, and maybe it does need nerfs. But I think it's riskier than a more traditional nid build and can still be countered with correct play.
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby PianoMan » Wed 25 Dec, 2019 2:15 pm

Hormagaunts stop scaling once you hit all of your t2 timings, your best nid timings are when the 2x raveners come out, the third ravener drop from RA's global or LA's TG+venom brood, these things get countered rather easily on their own but your hormagaunts prevent that from happening and still have a role to perform instead of being just cappers, termagaunts don't do anything at that point and warriors are a much bigger investment
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boss
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby boss » Thu 26 Dec, 2019 5:33 pm

Hormagaunts are great for retreat killing and chasing, idk what you are on about telos they can always have a place because of there speed and wipe potential cos of it same goes for other fast melee units.
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Telos
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby Telos » Fri 27 Dec, 2019 3:39 am

I completely agree. I just don't think they scale as well as other melee units into late game, esp without melee synapse, but they certainly have their place in the roster. Probably I just need to improve my control of them mechanically.

Thanks for the explanations as well. So is that to mean that boss and piano are of the opinion that nerfs on Hormagaunts are necessary?
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Oddnerd
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 28 Dec, 2019 8:02 pm

Horms don't scale well if you are treating them as a melee superiority unit, but that isn't their main role. They are there for chasing and wiping ranged units and they remain quite good at that against most ranged units (maybe not terminators); if you want a unit that can go toe-to-toe with other melee units you should invest in genestealers or a TG.
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boss
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby boss » Tue 31 Dec, 2019 6:12 pm

What oddnerd says, instead of looking at the weakness of a unit use there strengths to your advantage and no hormagaunts should not be nerfed only reason for the cost increase is cos of 1 build and a risking one at that but instead of looking at the issue of it other changes get done instead and overall will just make normally builds meh.
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LOCALgHOST
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Re: Hormagaunts

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 01 Jan, 2020 2:30 pm

cost increase? maybe it's ok

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