2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Elite (and related) releases.
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Adeptus Noobus
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 04 May, 2017 8:58 pm

Well I will post all my thoughts in this post over time:

First and foremost the Nobs change - It is way too drastic. Yes, Nobs needed changes but the proposed changes will make them useless. Suppression immunity is absolutely neccessary for them. The main problem stems from their toughness. They are just super fucking tough to kill without overspending in Anti-Nobs weaponry. That should be the point of approach when rebalancing Nobs.

The Holy Pyre - Much discussed but very much needed. It definitely needed further nerfs since it is such a troll weapon. The amount of pain she can inflict with such a cheap Power Melee weapon was just out of control. Especially for Nids and Orks.

Fire Dragons - Wrong approach in my oppinion. Their strength did not come from their dps but as boss already stated from the Dragons Fury. BUT they have been nerfed appropriately in the past. They are not as strong anymore as many make them out to be. First of all, they are more expensive now since you have to purchase more upgrades to upgrade them to their old glory and secondly they are VERY fragile and will melt under focus fire. No race struggles against them imo.

HGDS - The question of internal balance has not been adressed yet. WHY would anybody get the HGDS in T1 when they can get a much better weapon that does everything better and with the same dps in T2? I have also raised the question about the big difference in energy management that this change would bring for the WSE. Has also not been adressed in my oppinion. I still believe making sure that you can retreat out of HGF is the best change for this weapon. This change is bigger than you think.

Autarch - I still stand by my view that the Fusion Gun is useless and won't be more attractive for anybody with this change, especially when Eldar don't have any power to waste in T2. Her other weapon will always outshine the Fusion Gun. Especially with this dps hit. If you buff it though, she will be a Fire Dragon on overdrive that can jump and fleet soooo.....there is no middle ground with this weapon.

Haywire Grenade - Can we please keep in mind that Warpspiders are increadibly expensive and are the most fragile when it comes to snaring vehicles? Every other race has more robust units that slow vehicles. I just feel like this has been overlooked here. Consider also what I said about Fire Dragons. Unless they get a (damn) good flank in they will just be focused down on approach on forced off in which case the Haywire will have been for nought.

Grenade vs vehicle - Finally.

Green cover courage - Caeltos was right that it opened up other ways to counter supp. teams but it also made them much much less effective in certain MUs. TM with Artificer Armor will outshoot most setup teams iirc. TL;DR - Finally.
Last edited by Adeptus Noobus on Thu 04 May, 2017 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Crewfinity
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 04 May, 2017 9:18 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:Purgation Squad - Why exactly do they need weapon range that is superior even to Autocannons?



Autocannon range is 55 bro :)
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Thu 04 May, 2017 10:01 pm

Crewfinity wrote:
Adeptus Noobus wrote:Purgation Squad - Why exactly do they need weapon range that is superior even to Autocannons?



Autocannon range is 55 bro :)

That was an oversight by me. That was meant to not be in the post as I checked that myself already XD Sorry.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby _4ut_ » Thu 04 May, 2017 10:11 pm

Stubbornness no longer increases the Lord Commissar’s damage.

madnes
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gigantic damage bonuses that it gave was way too much

Teleport hammer wiping army? No, i don't hear about it.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby boss » Thu 04 May, 2017 10:32 pm

The Heavy Gauge Death Spinner will be diffent cos it will stun which I guess will stop abilitys to? over a Immobilizes for the Entangling Web which has a low range than the Heavy Gauge Death Spinner and in t2 and more cost, for instants that cl just running around not giving a shit well now you can wait to immobilizes him in t2 or stun him in t1 which I guess will also stop abilitys which vs an apo he wont be able heal when he want or an wb now more Now I'm Angry stun. I don't no if it will stop squads form using abilitys tho?

Autarch their no point to the changes at all.

Haywire Grenade if this change goes then I want more heath for the warp siders they are very fragile how about 200 heath per guy over 180? also give back the old Dire Avenger heath buff with Battle Equipment which gave 33% it was not op, also make ranges more useful more damage with the
Pathfinder Gear pls I want to use them but their shit :(

And one last thing I agree with 4ut telhamer need some really nerf only way is to more teleport to t3
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Broodwich » Sat 06 May, 2017 4:35 am

Nob, FD, and autarch nerfs are too much imo. Liking the pyre nerf, not a big fan of the gk ss changes
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Adeptus Noobus » Sat 06 May, 2017 8:08 am

After some more thinking (and looking through the Codex) I believe that the Terminator size buff is way too strong. You are cutting 90% accuracy from Lascannons but more importantly you are also nerfing the accuracy of Plasma Guns by 20%. Is that intended or just an oversight?

EDIT:
How is accuracy factored into the damage calculation btw? Is it just a straight up modifier that is added to each damage tick or to e.g. every x-th dmg tick were x is the chance to miss?
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Hutsy » Sat 06 May, 2017 11:12 am

For the Strike Squads - can you switch between melee and ranged upgrades?

My thinking is it's likely you'd go melee in T1 and look to potentially swap them to ranged in T2 to help a little with AV, so would this be possible?
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Sheitan » Sat 06 May, 2017 11:31 am

I really dont understand terminator size changes. Why changing sm and chaos termies to medium, but not changing OM termies size to medium aswell. Also why buffing speed for lclaws termies and OM termies not? Pyre nerf welcome, nobs overnerfed, maybe keep supression immunity, but lower the damage resistance during frenzy. Thammer + teleporter pack unchanged, are u kidding me?! Warboss unchanged.. maybe some nerf for Angry Bits. Eldar changes are good, only Autarch fusion gun is mistake. Lower the damage from Zoan FWB and replace with snare, should work with Vbrood vs transports.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby smokerbank » Sat 06 May, 2017 12:15 pm

Changes are fine tbh, maybe make frenzy cost 30 for what it does now, or grant 100% damage reduction, but the concept is great, people are just upset that nobz got downgraded from an OP unit to a good one.
Changes to termies are also good in my opinion, the fact that they are medium size increases their suvivability in the area they were most lacking without making them OP. LC termies might be actually a general good unit instead of the unit you're getting to have a bit of chance in the struggle vs Nobz.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Phoenix » Sat 06 May, 2017 3:47 pm

Another thing that needs a change is Excruciators. It seems to do full damage on retreat, I (ab)used it multiple times now to kill squads on retreat that were trying to escape with 1/3 of their hp. It's very painful for high model/low hp squads like Heretics, Hormagaunts etc. The whole channeled damage will still be applied even if the Inquisitor gets knocked down as well.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Atlas » Sat 06 May, 2017 8:28 pm

Adeptus Noobus wrote:After some more thinking (and looking through the Codex) I believe that the Terminator size buff is way too strong. You are cutting 90% accuracy from Lascannons but more importantly you are also nerfing the accuracy of Plasma Guns by 20%. Is that intended or just an oversight?

EDIT:
How is accuracy factored into the damage calculation btw? Is it just a straight up modifier that is added to each damage tick or to e.g. every x-th dmg tick were x is the chance to miss?


Yes, and accuracy is just hit or miss in that order. When the lascannon misses its shot it doesn't do damage to the target because it missed. It's one of the few things about this game that is fairly straightforward.

Hutsy wrote:For the Strike Squads - can you switch between melee and ranged upgrades?

My thinking is it's likely you'd go melee in T1 and look to potentially swap them to ranged in T2 to help a little with AV, so would this be possible?


No you can't switch. Strikes now choose a specialization in combat instead of just being mediocre at everything. A ranged Strike squad now performs noticeably better than 2.6.1 Strikes in ranged and melee Strikes were pretty solid as is but will Energy Burst far faster.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby lomors » Sat 06 May, 2017 8:59 pm

I dunno about balance but when it comes to autarch fusion gun yeah, it will remain not-buyable for me. Making it go t2 with increased price but without damage reduction would make it way more considerable.
When it comes to wse weapon... It's hard for me to say.. I rarely buy this upgrade anyway, now maybe I will buy it to stop some chaos lord/force commanders in 1v1s. It actually sounds okay.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 06 May, 2017 9:27 pm

Sheitan wrote:I really dont understand terminator size changes. Why changing sm and chaos termies to medium, but not changing OM termies size to medium aswell. Also why buffing speed for lclaws termies and OM termies not?
Because it's stupid that AV weapons are actually good versus them and because in Elite there are way too many counters to terminators.
GK Terms are speed how much already...? You want them to become speed 6 or something?
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby boss » Sat 06 May, 2017 9:49 pm

Would venom brood still be able to hit Terminators? cos nids don't get Plasma damage or inferno in t2
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Lesten » Sat 06 May, 2017 10:02 pm

Indrid wrote:Don't like the Terminator losing large size, especially since OM Terms don't get the same treatment. Consistency!
Exactly! It's not only confusing when two similar units/weapons have wildly varying attributes, but also a huge kick in the keister for lore and realism. Some differences are fine, but all terminator variants are clearly the same size. You should be able to use common sense when playing - if terminator A is large, then terminator B should be as well. I know lore isn't a valid argument for balance, but then make the unit something else instead. If that unit shouldn't be large, then make it something other than a terminator unit OR make ALL terminator variants medium sized.

* Autarch fusion gun still won't be worth it. If I have 30 power I'd rather get an actual AV unit. The spear makes her level up much faster (and give her a chance to actually survive), so it's pretty much a no-brainer compared to the fusion gun, though keeping her default sword is also a good choice and just use her for disruption and capping.

* Fire Dragons seem overnerfed. Didn't consider them over-performing in the current patch, but if they were this seems like too big a change.

* The extra XP for Spirit Stones was an *interesting*, fun and unique feature, but x2 was a tad much. Would be nice to see another fun feature instead of just removing it outright. Otherwise a small cost reduction might be in order.

* Warp Spider haywire grenades. With my micro I might as well never get this squad. Perhaps if they were heavy infantry they could take some fire instead of dropping models like flies (or spiders even) when trying to use their grenade. And again... consistency! Won't it be confusing for everyone but the most hardcore players that read the forum and codex frequently, if one effect lasts for 8 sec and the other for 15? Make them both the same.

* Nob nerf seems too much. Like others have suggested, perhaps suppression immunity instead of damage reduction? Then again, without suppression immunity it would make the orks have to be creative in how to get the nobs stuck in melee.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby fe_ » Sat 06 May, 2017 10:08 pm

boss wrote:Would venom brood still be able to hit Terminators? cos nids don't get Plasma damage or inferno in t2

Same question goes for HT/VCfex venom cannons.
Also I am not sure if discount for Warrior Vanguard is needed, with new melta-warriors HT will get yet another AV option much cheaper (50/25) than 2 other heroes with almost instant delivery onto battlefield. That's already a good global, considering you don't usually need WB in t1 as HT.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Torpid » Sun 07 May, 2017 11:59 am

boss wrote:Would venom brood still be able to hit Terminators? cos nids don't get Plasma damage or inferno in t2


Essentially if it doesn't reliably hit the chaos lord then it won't hit terminators anymore. So no, venom brood would miss a lot more.

These things and the general reduction in accuracy even for inferno/plasma damage is intended. It is a big buff!

Essentially the size change is an overall buff to their hp since it makes all kinds of ranged things hit them less, and of course, makes AV way less effective which is good as it makes tank+termy a brutal late-game duo that will end pretty much any composition that a foe who is stuck in T2 has, except IG perhaps.

What it doesn't do however is affect melee. Power melee would still be just as effective. If you truly are stuck in T2 then go genestealer.

That said, you deserve to lose if you are stuck in T2 (especially as nids) vs someone who just dropped termies. It's not exactly cheap. A bunch of req and a bunch of power (when you consider how much power T3 costs too).

Of course in T3, the thornback fex or the neurothrope are your 'hard' counters.

fe_ wrote:
boss wrote:Would venom brood still be able to hit Terminators? cos nids don't get Plasma damage or inferno in t2

Same question goes for HT/VCfex venom cannons.
Also I am not sure if discount for Warrior Vanguard is needed, with new melta-warriors HT will get yet another AV option much cheaper (50/25) than 2 other heroes with almost instant delivery onto battlefield. That's already a good global, considering you don't usually need WB in t1 as HT.


That change was made before we decided to add thorax warriors, so yeah, it is a good point actually. I'll publish a revised changelog with the comments made in this thread in mind late tomorrow or Tuesday.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby hiveminion » Sun 07 May, 2017 12:05 pm

My only concern is that while ranged Terminators were definitely in need of a buff this change also affects Assault Terminators which I believe are just fine at the moment. They are also obviously pretty hard to counter in melee.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Torpid » Sun 07 May, 2017 12:13 pm

hiveminion wrote:My only concern is that while ranged Terminators were definitely in need of a buff this change also affects Assault Terminators which I believe are just fine at the moment. They are also obviously pretty hard to counter in melee.

I dont agree. I think both variants of terminators were in need of such a buff. Melee terminators are incredibly niche. LC ones are very rare in teams since they can get focused down so easily, and also in 1v1 since they do nothing vs a tank. Stuns are still the worst nightmare of melee terminators. Everytime they go into the thick of it they risk getting stunned and that leaves them vulnerable to melee.

Hammer/shield termies are not really very good vs melee. And too slow to be good AV either. So they don't really have much of a purpose except to be a niche counter to ranged spam which atm they don't do well because that SHI doesn't really help in 80% of the cases where you might consider getting them.

It should work like how it did in retail where if you opponent over-commits a lot to T2 (with the exception of walkers which is a very all-in T2 and should beat a hammernator rush), and you manage to safely tech to T3, preserve your army and drop melee terms. You should win because they just should not be able to touch them and you bleed them to death, base-lock them, and destroy their gens.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby boss » Sun 07 May, 2017 2:41 pm

Terminators did indeed need a buff their no reason to go them over a tank, I don't no if size was the way to go tho this might bring a whole load of problems especially for races that don't have easily plasma or in inferno in t2 so orks and tyranids the other races are easily plasma or inferno.

As of t3 for tyranids their not much point going for tyranids unless for the Swarmlord with the Neurothrope costing less their more of the point but still fex are very niche and are not worth the cost default one is useless,Thornback fex cost a lot and not much point when you can just a Swarmlord by them, need a buff or less cost to be worth it. Barbed Strangler the best fex but still cost a lot tho and Venom Cannon well since it lost it splash it only worth it vs vehicle and well 1 5th of your amy can only damage vehicle hence I never get this upgrade at all no more tho Bio-Plasma is very strong
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Sheitan » Sun 07 May, 2017 3:32 pm

Dark Riku wrote:
Sheitan wrote:I really dont understand terminator size changes. Why changing sm and chaos termies to medium, but not changing OM termies size to medium aswell. Also why buffing speed for lclaws termies and OM termies not?
Because it's stupid that AV weapons are actually good versus them and because in Elite there are way too many counters to terminators.
GK Terms are speed how much already...? You want them to become speed 6 or something?


U re right. GK termies already have 5 speed. Paladins 4. Thats all right. But unit size should be same either medium or large. But not sm/cms termies medium and OM termies/palladins large.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Atlas » Tue 09 May, 2017 9:20 am

Bump. Here are the updates in plain text. This is going to delay 2.7 a little bit, and no we're not going to change anything else. ----

Hive Tyrant Warrior Vanguard cost reverted from 250/0/125 to 300/0/150.
Ravener Alpha Hardened Carapace cost increased from 100/20 to 120/25.
Carnifex Thornback upgrade now increases hp regen from 1 to 1.75.
Autarch Fusion Gun cost reverted from 125/30 to 80/20.

Fire Dragon Squad:
Fusion Gun Damage per hit increased from 28 to 30.
Speed reduced from 6.5 to 6.

Warp Spider Squad:
Member hp increased from 180 to 190.
Exarch hp increased from 200 to 275.

Nob Squad:
Frenzy once again grants suppression immunity and breaks suppression upon use.
Frenzy damage resistance reduced from 100% to 75%.
Frenzy no longer increases the squad’s damage by 20%.
Frenzy duration decreased from 10 seconds to 8 seconds.

Strike Squad:
Justicar sword changed from gk sword marine ss justicar to gk_sword_purifier.
Psybolt Ammunition is now available in T1, rather than T2.
Nemesis Force now allows the Strike Squad (and Justicar) to melee charge for a range of 12, 6 second cooldown and +3 speed.

Grey Knight Terminators:
Size reduced from Large to Medium.
Speed reduced from 5 to 4.5.

Paladin Squad:
Size reduced from Large to Medium.
Speed increased from 4 to 4.5.
Hp regen increased from .5 to 1.75.
Paladins now inspire non-Terminator allied infantry upon melee kill in radius 35, increasing their damage mitigation by 3% and lowering received suppression by 10% for 15 seconds. Also restores 20 courage. Passive ability.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 09 May, 2017 2:10 pm

Still no response as to why the crushing claws will stay cheaper. Doesn't make sense.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby boss » Tue 09 May, 2017 2:14 pm

Crushing Claw should be back at it old cost I told them to fix that and why on earth are fire dragons getting more damage?
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 09 May, 2017 3:42 pm

I don't see why a squad that has 4050hp with it's leader at level 1 needs to have any DR on frenzy. They got the suppression immunity back, which is perfectly fine as a gap closer, don't know why they need anything more.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Cyris » Tue 09 May, 2017 3:53 pm

Nice additions. I'm super confused by the SS upgrades though. Is this correct:

T1 - Nemesis Force - Now also grants charge in T1
T1 - Psy-ammo - Costs (?) Does (?)

T2 - Justicar - Has a power sword now. Only has energy burst if NF is purchased.
T2 - Psycannon - Can only be purchased if Psyammo is purchased.

I'd love to know the costs / specific numbers being thrown around!
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Wise Windu » Tue 09 May, 2017 4:16 pm

Crushing Claws were set back to 150/50
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Atlas » Tue 09 May, 2017 6:51 pm

Wise Windu wrote:Crushing Claws were set back to 150/50

Right my bad, that was already in.

Cyris wrote:Nice additions. I'm super confused by the SS upgrades though. Is this correct:

T1 - Nemesis Force - Now also grants charge in T1
T1 - Psy-ammo - Costs (?) Does (?)

T2 - Justicar - Has a power sword now. Only has energy burst if NF is purchased.
T2 - Psycannon - Can only be purchased if Psyammo is purchased.

I'd love to know the costs / specific numbers being thrown around!

Image
Both Nemesis and Psybolts are 60/15, the Justicar is getting 5 power cheaper and the other costs are exactly the same. A Justicar in melee would now do +5 damage and power melee from what he was before. The rest of it is all is already listed in the changelog.

To boil the Strikes changes down, Strikes are kind of like CSM now in that they start pretty mediocre at everything and then pick a specialty in combat. Melee Strikes are basically baby Purifiers and Ranged Strikes are supplemental AV. Both versions of Strikes have a support element to their role.
The Justicar matters far more to Melee Strikes and the Psycannon is only available to Ranged Strikes.

The reason this was done is to remove the binary op-or-useless nature of a unit that can do a little bit of everything. Locking Strikes into a choice of combat role allows us to make them worth a damn at something without risking them going anti-everything.
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Re: 2.7 Preview Changelog ONLY

Postby Hutsy » Tue 09 May, 2017 8:15 pm

My lack of knowledge on balancing etc to one side - I certainly think the Strike Squad changes and subsequent tweaks look good.

Looking forward to trying them!

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