The force commander and his clothes

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Symetric
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The force commander and his clothes

Postby Symetric » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 1:49 pm

Greetings, fellowers of the fancy dressed emperah! :geek:

Me, the up-to-date-styled force commander cant effort to wield the same style all the game! So throw away the old stuff and get fashioned in battle!

I hope i get some laughs from you, if not sry^^ heres the Topic: The force commanders Termi upgrade isnt that bad. especially flamer TFC does very well in some cases. But i got the slight feeling that loosing all of your stuff when changing, is kinda logical, but its a huge loss. A too huge loss.
My own feelings about that aside, i rarely see anyone use this option, and think its because of that loss. i could only imagine getting termi armour when buying no/1/max 2 cheap wargears. the req aside, its 140-170 power that can be used elsewhere quite useful. especially when you want the FC being decent till T3, he should have at least a light equip.

Im not one of the top Tier gamers here, so i wish to be enlighted if im totally wrong :)

for a change, i think the cost itself is ok, but the lost of recources is a problem. Solving this by maybe getting the weapon upgrade on FCT free if you got 1-2 wargears on him previously.

Thanks for your time to read and dont go too harsh on me xD
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby ChrisNihilus » Wed 16 Apr, 2014 5:05 pm

So, you enjoy fancy dresses? Excellent!
Can I give you this Slaaneshi depliant?
You should really check it out. Fun for all the ages (and for eternity really)!

-------

The Terminator upgrade is a really weird thing for sure.
It's not bad, and if i remember correctly it received huge buffs in the mod, but i guess losing all the upgrades is something people don't like to do.
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L0thar
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby L0thar » Fri 18 Apr, 2014 10:56 am

The terminator armour is indeed in a weird spot...I remember using it only one time and that was because I was sucking through the whole game making my FC very low level in T3.

I wonder if it would be possible to allow changing the FC back from terminator armour to normal armour. All your previously wargear would be there, as would gained experience and levels. The FC would obviously gain no exp while in the termie armour.

So you could switch between normal FC and FCT, just like you can switch between wargears on all other heroes.

I don't think it would be balance breaking (the FCT armour costs a ton!), but it would make the FC quite flexible and more interesting to play.

Another idea is changing the battlecry a little, but I like the previous idea more.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Rataxas » Mon 28 Apr, 2014 1:12 pm

Symetric wrote:Greetings, fellowers of the fancy dressed emperah! :geek:

Me, the up-to-date-styled force commander cant effort to wield the same style all the game! So throw away the old stuff and get fashioned in battle!

I hope i get some laughs from you, if not sry^^ heres the Topic: The force commanders Termi upgrade isnt that bad. especially flamer TFC does very well in some cases. But i got the slight feeling that loosing all of your stuff when changing, is kinda logical, but its a huge loss. A too huge loss.
My own feelings about that aside, i rarely see anyone use this option, and think its because of that loss. i could only imagine getting termi armour when buying no/1/max 2 cheap wargears. the req aside, its 140-170 power that can be used elsewhere quite useful. especially when you want the FC being decent till T3, he should have at least a light equip.

Im not one of the top Tier gamers here, so i wish to be enlighted if im totally wrong :)

for a change, i think the cost itself is ok, but the lost of recources is a problem. Solving this by maybe getting the weapon upgrade on FCT free if you got 1-2 wargears on him previously.

Thanks for your time to read and dont go too harsh on me xD


Well i just love when new players want to make balance. So i got tip for you... if you want to use termi FC you NEED to know that before game even started. On some MU will work on some will not... thats all what good ( not even a PRO ) player need to know.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Barrogh » Mon 28 Apr, 2014 1:54 pm

Rataxas wrote:Well i just love when new players want to make balance. So i got tip for you... if you want to use termi FC you NEED to know that before game even started. On some MU will work on some will not... thats all what good ( not even a PRO ) player need to know.

Obviosuly, when you are going to use something, you'd better know how it works. That won't stop people from inviting others to discuss something from "what would be if it was this way..." PoV.
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sk4zi
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby sk4zi » Mon 28 Apr, 2014 2:18 pm

so actually there are cases when Term armor makes much sense for your FC, sometimes even when he has allready some wargear.

1. your level is poor
it might be good if your FC was shot down all the time and now in endgame he is just underpowered due to his low level.
i think i would no more get the term amor if hes at least level 4

2. you were not able to get upgrades because of low eco.
if you didnt get anything - or just 1 maybe upgrade, it might be worth to get the armor since you get much for it. namely: Teleport, AV, Good range, super armor and much hp
so even if you got something. buying a teleporter and a wheapon can cost almost the same...

3. you need that flamer
so vs IG e.g. the flame on the term armor can do incredible damage. so it might be a good answer versus t1 blobs you just were not able to deal with.

its sad, that the fc looses his levels but keep in track that he would not have that much hp in power armor even with level 10. also he looses his melee skill, but with that armor hes immune to most of the knockbacks, so this is also not a real problem.

then there is the glich with the repurchase ...
since the price to repurchase a hero depends on his level, the Term FC will allways cost just 300 (going down to 250) to repurchase when he died.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Bahamut » Mon 28 Apr, 2014 3:05 pm

A lvl 10 fc with artificer and halo is about 33% sturdier than a termine fc
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Barrogh » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 5:41 am

Don't forget that TFC has heavy infantry armor and not commander armor.
Just saying since people started to calculate HP :P
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby BaptismByLoli » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 6:10 am

Not SHI?
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Swift
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Swift » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 7:41 am

It is Super Heavy Infantry I believe.
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Wise Windu
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Wise Windu » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 7:42 am

It's Heavy Infantry.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Swift » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 7:44 am

Should have checked the codex :oops:
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby ChrisNihilus » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 8:22 am

You are right, it's Heavy Infantry and not Super Heavy Infantry like other Terminators.

Is this wanted?
Looks like an Oversight to me.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby L0thar » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 8:36 am

Heavy infantry armour in T3 is quite a bit worse than commander armour. Almost anything at that point does some bonus damage against it (plasma twice as much!).

If you have leveled FC and want survivability, don't bother with termie armour. But it's worth to mention that TFC has some ranged options, which allows him to stay away from direct fights, still contribute some damage while still having good melee option in the power fist. Unlike FC, who has only melee weapons.

I still stay by my earlier suggestion - make the TFC able to equip normal armour back, with all previously bought wargear and acquired levels. But is it even possible to implement?
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Barrogh » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 10:03 am

ChrisNihilus wrote:Is this wanted?
Looks like an Oversight to me.

Well, it was always like that, at least as far as Retri goes, and it was pointed out multiple times. It wasn't touched either despite being actively used from time to time, probably because TFC's survivability wasn't anyone's actively expressed concern tbh.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 01 May, 2014 4:53 am

somewhat on the original topic, but I was just thinking this:
What if the teleporter on the force commander were replaced with a jump pack?

I was thinking this for several reasons.
First of all it's more fluffy, you see space marine leaders in jump packs on TT all the time, but they dont have a teleporter unless they're terminators.

Second, i think its cooler.

Third, I think it's more fitting with the theme of the hero, to do a jump with knockback on landing rather than an instant teleport. It'll also make it less annoying to play against a FC with teleporter and power fist, who can almost instantly throw flesh over steel onto any vehicle, or if he has the thunder hammer. This will give people playing against him a bit more time to react, which i think is fair, and will also give him a bit more disruption.


Just a random thought I had, what does everyone else think?
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Nurland » Thu 01 May, 2014 12:30 pm

Imo giving FC more disruption via jump pack doesn't sound like a fun idea.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby BaptismByLoli » Thu 01 May, 2014 1:26 pm

Hehe... Just imagining an FC flying into a ranged blob and then immediately using Battle cry with TH equipped is lulz XD.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Tex » Thu 01 May, 2014 2:05 pm

FC termy armor is in a very good spot now imo.

I think somebody already did a pretty good situational list of when to use it.

I personally find myself using it in more and more games. The ability to teleport in and use a massively powerful AOE nuke is tbh... fucking awesome. Also, the special attack on those lit claws is super duper good as far as I've seen, so battlecry + tele is gonna seriously tear some shit up, especially since the odds of you dying is very low.

Also, since you are stuck at level 1 in termy armor, if you somehow do lose your hero, you can revive him very shortly after for 250 req.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Forestradio » Thu 01 May, 2014 2:05 pm

The FC's jump pack doesn't have to knockback on landing. You could make it like the t1 stormboyz jump, with no effect on landing.

With tracking FoS, it may be best to no longer have instantaneous teleport.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 01 May, 2014 2:59 pm

That's what I was thinking, I always thought that having the instantaneous teleport on such a tanky, damage dealing commander was kinda bullshit...

That said, I still abuse the hell out of it. Who needs micro when you can kill vehicles like that? :)
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 01 May, 2014 3:02 pm

Crewfinity wrote:That said, I still abuse the hell out of it. Who needs micro when you can kill vehicles like that? :)
Your opponent who will punish the hell out of you for doing that without microing?
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 01 May, 2014 3:07 pm

Can't argue with that, but the teleporting into flesh over steel makes it soooo much easier to set up vehicle kills and whatnot than trying to bait them into a lascannon arc or something.

That said, i'd say my skill level is decent at best, so if yall think he's fine as is than I'll shut up :P
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Orkfaeller » Thu 01 May, 2014 3:51 pm

Radio the Forest wrote:The FC's jump pack doesn't have to knockback on landing. You could make it like the t1 stormboyz jump, with no effect on landing.

With tracking FoS, it may be best to no longer have instantaneous teleport.


Why would Assault Marines disrupt but the Force Commander?

Thats the kind of inconsistency I really dont like to see.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Bahamut » Thu 01 May, 2014 3:57 pm

nerfing a t2 40power accessory just because fluff...
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby L0thar » Fri 02 May, 2014 4:01 pm

FC doesn't need any more kicking, he is the hero who suffered the most in Elite.

Well, not really from balance standpoint, but from...let's call it uniqueness.

Every well designed hero should have something he excels at, something he could do better than all other heroes in the game. Nobody is better healer than Apo, nobody is better at hit-and-run and map control than WSE, no one can turtle like PC, etc. etc.

FC uniqueness got a big hit in Elite. First his signature and unique unit (assterms) were given to Chaos and GK (yes, the GK terms and paladins differ, but they are still more similar to assterms than anything else in the game). Then his other unique trait - being the only relatively tanky and damage dealing hero who can teleport - was given to BC.

What remains? Well, still something. The TFC transformation is one unique trait and his ability to very well deal with vehicles thanks to port+FoS is another. Don't take it away...

Not to mention that the teleport also allows for some sneakiness, unlike jump pack, which is much more visible.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Black Relic » Sat 03 May, 2014 9:34 am

What are peoples thoughts on the FC's terminator armor? Because even without a way for him to effectively hit vehicles or infantry (since he soooo damn slow), he scares the living hell out of most of them. And he is very effective at stopping blobs, melee and ranged because of his teleport. Plus he gets a pretty good ranged weapon to start out. Not to mention his big ass health pool. Not to mention he can retreat (A FREAKING TERMINATOR RETREAT!!! HERESY!). And PLEASE don't forget that he can teleport also. And the LAST thing is he inspires on kill.

That is VERY powerful. I think FC did a few unique "traits" taken away but not much can beat a terminator FC and especially with support. Freaker can solo a dread (as long as it doesn't have support) by himself. I remember doing a 1v1 vs chaos. I had to rush t3 because I couldn't counter a pred and a MoT dread with anything I had (stupid OP Chaos Lord claws, hate and halololo). And FC termi did the trick and practically won me the game. Hell, he doesn't really need a wargear purchase to be effective, let alone a one man army (unlike the MASSIVE investment for Chaos lord for him to be one). Since that is essentially what you buy. A One man army.

And in my humble opinion. FC is still good at where he is at. No really need to add or change anything atm.



*Contradicting myself here but here is a quick time suggestion (or something to think about) how about an armor upgrade for him that bettered his supportive capabilities further? Like something like Battle Cry and We Are The Hammer meshed together. Excluding the damage resistance though. For example, effected units have a +.5 to their movement speed and damage increased by 7%. And its separate from battle cry so both damage buffs could stack. Since FC excels MOST in inspiration and all. Feel free to flame this. For I am. A Space Marine fan boy. A Big one too since I spelled out the races whole name instead of using an abbreviation. :lol:
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby Swift » Sat 03 May, 2014 12:16 pm

Seems logical, so perhaps instead of creating a point of return witht he terminator armour, perhaps make his armour a little more desirable for more than just bashing things, instead make his battle cry that little smidgen better.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby lolzarz » Sat 03 May, 2014 3:28 pm

Won't making an armor that buffs battle-cry overlap with the power sword? Could we make something that, say, causes allied infantry to deal more damage/take less damage in close combat? It shouldn't overlap with Storm Shield, as that decreases ranged damage taken. Not sure if it would make the Space Marine army too tough when the armor and the storm shield are used together, though.
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Re: The force commander and his clothes

Postby BaptismByLoli » Sat 03 May, 2014 3:37 pm

lolzarz wrote:Won't making an armor that buffs battle-cry overlap with the power sword?


That's the Commissar Lord, not Force Commander XD
FC Power Sword is nothing special. Just straight up more damage
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