Sternguard Ammo

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Guilliman
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Sternguard Ammo

Postby Guilliman » Mon 09 May, 2016 4:37 pm

Hi guys,

I wanted to clarify the optimal use of the sternguard special ammo against unit types and here is what I have so far:

1. Kraken: Any SM-type (heavy armour) so all SMs and CSM. Does this include wright guards? What are some other units to consider with these rounds?

2. Hellfire: All regular infantry like guardsman, basic orc/tyranids etc. I heard this is the ideal ammo vs commander armour? Seems odd

3. Dragon: I am not sure what is the best use for these rounds. I guess they are for units in cover? What are good uses for these?

4. Vengeance: Teminator type armor. And vehicles as well? Are they better than kraken vs SM type troops?

Thanks! Any other uses for these rounds would be great. I use to never get these units but I have been using them more and seem great once you good good switching rounds which was little off putting before.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 09 May, 2016 5:15 pm

Kraken: vs HI and commander amor types. Yes that includes wraithguard.
Hellfire: vs infantry and on retreat. Used to be best vs commanders, but that's some patches ago.
Dragonfire versus units in cover indeed. Only useful in very rare occasions, better to just avoid this one.
Vengeance versus SHI (termi type indeed) and versus vehicle armor. They are not better versus HI than kraken.

I personally believe that sternguard are always a bad purchase, they do not offer you much while costing a ton.
Better to get extra units out to deal with the threats given by your opponent.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 09 May, 2016 6:08 pm

Dragonfire rounds ignore cover, however you won't find yourself needing them often. The only major advantage they give is the 1X damage vs garrisoned units (garrison normally is a 0.3X modifier), but by the time you have a sternguard squad garrisoned infantry are already not much of a threat.
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Torpid
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Torpid » Mon 09 May, 2016 6:34 pm

Riku covered it, but yeah dragonfire's main use is to decimate units in garrisons since it will act like they're just stood there in the open. They will die surprisingly fast. I wish dragonfire ignored energy shields.
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Tinibombini
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Tinibombini » Mon 09 May, 2016 6:57 pm

Dark Riku wrote:I personally believe that sternguard are always a bad purchase, they do not offer you much while costing a ton.
Better to get extra units out to deal with the threats given by your opponent.


Hi Riku,

What do you think about Sternguard as a second Tac squad from a drop pod in early T2 or late T1 (so the tacs won't have levels to lose from upgrading to Sternguard)? I don't play much SM but it seems like they might be useful against eldar with all the DA's we see (esp. in team games) for Hellfire and then Kraken for things like FDs.

I am interested in hearing your thoughts.

Thanks
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egewithin
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby egewithin » Mon 09 May, 2016 8:43 pm

Tinibombini wrote:What do you think about Sternguard as a second Tac squad from a drop pod in early T2 or late T1 (so the tacs won't have levels to lose from upgrading to Sternguard)?


This is a smart move, I do that a lot. But I use drop pod as an assault tool, chrush enemy set up team with it and tie it up with new Tacs, then use it as a cover untill you force the enemy off.

Dark Riku wrote:I personally believe that sternguard are always a bad purchase.


Not quite. I love getting those guys. Why you don't want an anti-everything unit under your dispose insted of only a 1 dementional unit? :D There might be situations where SternGuard are a bad choice of cource, I can never ignore that. But come on, they are always doing good job with their ammos.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 09 May, 2016 9:36 pm

In the rare instances when I play SM, I find that sternguards work quite well against infantry armour races.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Dark Riku » Mon 09 May, 2016 9:59 pm

@Tinibombini
I've elaborated on this more in the past. CBA to find the thread right now or fully elaborate again. Sorry :p
A full sternguard squad is 20 pop and cost you a ton (625/55 or 525/55/100).
You usually need those resources to get actual counters. For example, if you want to counter (S)HI you're better of with the way cheaper plasma tacs.
The loss of levels is a big deal. Also the (optional) sergeant losing his chainsword and not being able to do special attacks without ATSKNF.
This is from a 1v1 perspective and in the many 3v3's I've played and thought sterns might be useful they always proved lackluster.

firatwithin wrote:Not quite.
What didn't you understand about "I personally believe?"
firatwithin wrote:Why you don't want an anti-everything unit under your dispose insted of only a 1 dementional unit?
Because they do a mediocre job at everything for a very steep initial purchase price.
In this game you want hardcounters or anti all units with major damage output like autocannons, fire dragons, d-cannons, ...
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Black Relic
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Black Relic » Thu 26 May, 2016 10:38 pm

I am going to take Riku's side on this one. Although I get Stern Guards alot (usually only vs Orks and IG), the only time I do is when i have the counters i need and a unit that is a SOFT counter to everything couldn't hurt. But the main reason as to why i can make that work is by being an FC and putting FTE on them nearly every engagement and popping battle cry early sometimes to make is a 35% buff.

But that normally only give you your money's worth vs infantry and not vehicles, HI or SHI since you will want that 35% damage increase on weapons that actually hard counter that armor type. Have you seen plasma gun tacs with a 55% damage increase vs HI? It's not hard to pull off. Kraken Bolts, FTE and Battle cry. And keep in mind plasma damage does 50% more to HI armor. Kraken rounds from sternguard will do a fair amount but since its all constant damage you wont bleed ant models. Which btw Plasma guns do 35% damage to vehicles. With a 35% damage boost that is a fair chunk of damage on rear armor.

35% damage increase on a lascannon. Vengeance rounds have no chance in comparison.

Sternguard are soft counters. Soft counters do not kill nearly as much as hard counters do. And what helps you win the game is bleeding a killing models. Not just hurting it.
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Tex
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Tex » Sat 28 May, 2016 1:44 am

Don't know which weed you guys smoke, but hellfire rounds are THE reason to buy or upgrade to sterns. Provides a really good commander counter and also deals with those pesky melee squads that you don't have a bonus against normally (sluggas, banshess, stormboyz, genestealers, etc).

Just my opinion I guess
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Asmon
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Postby Asmon » Sat 28 May, 2016 3:37 am

Mine too. Actually that was pretty much the conclusion of the first review of sternguards back when they were introduced into the game like 2 years ago.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 28 May, 2016 8:50 am

And since then, the hellfire rounds got nerfed.
Hellfire does not do particularly well against commanders Tex ...
Kraken does more damage to commanders.
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Tex » Sat 28 May, 2016 2:23 pm

What?

When the )(*#$& did that happen?

Kraken is the new anti-commander ammunition?
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Torpid
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Torpid » Sat 28 May, 2016 2:53 pm

Yeah, but not in retreat though. Ultimately the retreat damage and ignoring cover factor of the DoT is what makes the hellfire rounds so good not the base statistical dps.

But yeah hellfire nerfs took into account I still think sterns are pretty good, but I wouldn't get them on my first tac.
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egewithin
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby egewithin » Sat 28 May, 2016 3:00 pm

Bleed hero with kraken

swith hellfire to finish him on retreat.

problem solved.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 28 May, 2016 9:44 pm

Switching ammo takes time and they don't fire while reloading.
"Solution" given invalid.
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egewithin
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby egewithin » Sun 29 May, 2016 6:21 am

Dark Riku wrote:Switching ammo takes time and they don't fire while reloading.
"Solution" given invalid.


Damm it Rİku, do you EVER agree on something? Why is your stubbornness? I used this tactic a few times and I got what I wanted. Not every time it worked, if the hero is like 30% healthy it will fail, under 15% is a solution. Or you can imagine to switch Hellfire before the hero retreats while other players and squads are shooting at him. Yes I did that, I am not thorwing these.
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Dark Riku
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 29 May, 2016 7:05 am

firatwithin wrote:Damm it Rİku, do you EVER agree on something?
If something is true or false, there really isn't any agreeing or disagreeing.
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Torpid
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Re: Sternguard Ammo

Postby Torpid » Sun 29 May, 2016 2:49 pm

Obviously you switch just before they would retreat were you not to switch. They won't stay in this scenario as hellfire rounds still do some dps and since they are so closed to retreating they will lose models if they do stay in. Then the DoT kicks in...
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