Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Oddnerd
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Any chance of russes keeping the vision upgrade?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 24 Oct, 2016 3:26 am

I know from another thread that Leman Russes will no longer get the elite tank crew upgrade - I agree that with 35% universal DR, adding more HP to a tank that has 1100hp ( 700/0.65 = ~1076hp) is too much. The leman russ is already an excellent tank for the price. However, that elite tank crew upgrade was a must-have purchase for me because of the increased sight range it provided. I would still pay the full price of elite tank crew just for that sight, no bonus HP needed.

Any chance of leman russes having the option to buy more vision range?
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Re: Any chance of russes keeping the vision upgrade?

Postby DandyFrontline » Mon 24 Oct, 2016 5:22 pm

What thread says that? Is that official now?
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Re: Any chance of russes keeping the vision upgrade?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 24 Oct, 2016 5:44 pm

Torpid wrote:
MaxPower wrote:
Torpid wrote:I have noticied myself that the baneblade is terribly lacking. It's huge sunk costs make it totally unviable in 1v1 and it just gets nuked into its ass in 3v3. There is also an internal balance issue of lemans simply being too good.


Maybe we should nerf the Lemans then or the IGs ability to repair them in next to no time to make the BB more viable?


Lemans will be getting nerfed. No more elite tank crew. Thus lower hp for them.

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Torpid
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Re: Any chance of russes keeping the vision upgrade?

Postby Torpid » Mon 24 Oct, 2016 6:53 pm

I don't really see why the vision upgrade is necessary. Yes, it is part of the role of the Leman that it can run around the sides of the maps bleeding your foe and the like which will contrast from a cheaper baneblade which will serve as the vehicular,, anti infantry deterrent.

However, the leman is really tanky. I think that tankiness (combined with guardsmen's faster repair rate) justifies the loss in vision range - or at least, standard range compared to most T3 tanks.

If it is deemed bad enough it could of course be possible to include the vision in the initial price of the leman.

Increasing the initial price so the upgrade (including the hp buff) is built into the leman is a big nerf itself just because it delays the timing of the tank - something crucial to IG whose T2 is barring HWT spam extremely vulnerable to tank rushes.

I dunno how people feel about either proposal. Might be a good thread to discuss them on.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Any chance of russes keeping the vision upgrade?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 24 Oct, 2016 7:58 pm

If it isn't incorporated into the initial cost of the leman, maybe into the vanquisher cost? Its kinda important for the vanquisher upgrade because it makes the leman russ have vision range equal to its weapon range.
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Re: Any chance of russes keeping the vision upgrade?

Postby DandyFrontline » Mon 24 Oct, 2016 10:56 pm

Oddnerd wrote:If it isn't incorporated into the initial cost of the leman, maybe into the vanquisher cost? Its kinda important for the vanquisher upgrade because it makes the leman russ have vision range equal to its weapon range.


Well, its like you ll need to make vision with other units for your leman like you do for some of your long range set-up teams. Same as for a fire prism. Still, LR remains the slowest tank in the game, so it seems like a pretty painful nerf.
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Re: Any chance of russes keeping the vision upgrade?

Postby Blood Dragon » Tue 25 Oct, 2016 8:08 am

DandyFrontline wrote:Well, its like you ll need to make vision with other units for your leman like you do for some of your long range set-up teams. Same as for a fire prism. Still, LR remains the slowest tank in the game, so it seems like a pretty painful nerf.


Ig already is op but ig noobs asking for more buffs. Lr won't become useless without additional vision. In fact lr is the the t3 tank in game i think it should be nerfed more for example cost increase of his weapon upgrades would make it a lil bit more balanced.
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Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 26 Oct, 2016 5:00 pm

As others have pointed out, the problem with Leman Russes is not the power of its weapon upgrades - it is the base stats of the tank.

I agree with the removal of Elite Tank Crew on the basis that Leman Russes do not need anymore hp; However, I would still like to see them retain the LOS increase from Elite Tank Crew if possible. The problem is that, since the Leman Russ is already over-performing, adding in the LOS into the base cost or as a cheap upgrade would not solve the balance issue. One solution might be to take something away from the base stats of a Leman Russ as a trade.

Thanks to their passive DR of 35%, a leman russ with 700 hp has an effective HP of ~1077hp. I propose that you could remove the passive DR from leman Russes and change their HP to 1075 (or less). Their effective HP will remain very similar, but this will reduce the effectiveness of repair support on them. If my Leman Russ has 700 hp with 35% DR and it takes a 165 damage lascannon hit, the DR reduces this to 107 damage. If it has 1077 hp and no DR, it takes the full 165 damage. Both will die from the same number of hits, but the one with 35% DR will be repaired more efficiently, since each lascannon hit only requires 107 points of repair, rather than 165.

Considering that IG have the best repair support in the game with their GM and bunkers, I don't see why Leman Russes should have any further advantage in their repair efficiency than they already have from being in the IG roster. This reduction in repair efficiency might be one form of trade-off IG players could make in exchange for holding onto the LOS bonus of Elite Tank Crew..... or would at least merit receiving that bonus for a discounted price that could be incorporated into the upfront cost of a Leman Russ (maybe make Leman Russes cost 550/130 and come with the LOS upgrade... or make the LOS upgrade come with the vanquisher upgrade).

Just my 2 cents. On a somewhat related note, maybe the baneblade could use a reduction in base HP but receive the 35% DR. 2750 hp is a lot of HP to repair, even with IG repair support. 1750 hp with 35% DR would come out to a similar effective HP.
Atlas

Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Atlas » Wed 26 Oct, 2016 6:13 pm

Topic has been merged here. It's a good post, don't get me wrong. But we have something very similar to it.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 27 Oct, 2016 4:53 am

one thing that shouldnt be forgotten is that most vehicles, especially tanks, will be getting a large buff just from the 'hold fire' ability. idk how much yall have been able to use it yet but its fucking amazing. tanks were already good but now that you can actually control what they fire at while they move they're sooooooo much more consistent. this is going to benefit IG dispropotionately well just because they have the most durable tank in the game and the best repair support.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Torpid » Thu 27 Oct, 2016 4:55 pm

I really like the removal of DR suggestion in compensation for the same hp. Although I'm still not sure whether or not it will be enough to make lemans correctly balanced. Perhaps the DR removal and a small price increase?

The DR is a bit of a dodgy mechanic really in principle, it's so hidden and nothing else gets it.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Myrdal » Thu 27 Oct, 2016 9:42 pm

Crewfinity wrote:one thing that shouldnt be forgotten is that most vehicles, especially tanks, will be getting a large buff just from the 'hold fire' ability. idk how much yall have been able to use it yet but its fucking amazing. tanks were already good but now that you can actually control what they fire at while they move they're sooooooo much more consistent. this is going to benefit IG dispropotionately well just because they have the most durable tank in the game and the best repair support.

Yes we can probably remove it, DR or upgrade whatever.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Torpid » Thu 27 Oct, 2016 10:37 pm

How do we feel about implementing the upgrade in its fullest into the initial cost of the leman?

AND removing the DR for HP basically so the leman cannot be repaired as efficiently?

Would this be too strong a nerf? I certainly think it would be ample to remove any issues I have with lemans - and remember their upgrades are cheaper now. It would still have the initial bulk too to beat all other tanks 1v1. Just it would suffer more from taking those fights as it would take quite a substantial bit longer to repair from them.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 27 Oct, 2016 11:39 pm

I think that would be fine. It could also help kasrkins and the baneblade see more play as well with all these timing changes, the Russ won't be interally as overpowered in the IG T3 roster
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 29 Oct, 2016 3:03 am

Even without an inherent damage reduction the leman russ is still a very formidable tank. Predators have the advantage of speed, fire prisms have the advantage of massive range and 2 firing modes, and looted tanks have better anti-infantry ability.... so giving russes the HP and LOS advantage would make for decent balance IMO.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Torpid » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 9:43 am

Change proposal:

Leman Russ Battle Tank -
Elite Tank Crew upgrade removed.
Leman russ hp from 700 to 1230.
Innate damage resistance ability removed.
Leman russ cost increased from 500/125 to 575/135.
Starting sight radius increased from 40 to 55.
Vanquisher cannon upgrade cost reduced from 150/30 to 140/25.
Executioner Cannon upgrade cost reduced from 150/30 to 120/25.

Justification/Impetus:

Note that I have implemented the "elite tank crew" upgrade into the initial tank. The purpose of this is to affect its timing. Overall it is now cheaper than it was before even before upgrades. However, it comes out later which will have a HUGE effect in 1v1 and make the BB just that bit more tempting in 3v3. This will require a change to the leman russ drop global on the LG too. Not sure about numbers for that yet.

Do we agree that this resolves the issue?
Last edited by Torpid on Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Flash » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 12:16 pm

I like it.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Psycho » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:12 pm

Torpid wrote:Note that I have implemented the "elite tank crew" upgrade into the initial tank.


I take it this doesn't include the +100hp increase? Otherwise the effective hp of a Russ with 35% DR and 800hp would be 1230.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:42 pm

Those changes seem quite fair to me. It will delay the russ by a bit, but won't significantly disadvantage anyone except vehicle rushers, I would imagine.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Torpid » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:48 pm

Psycho wrote:
Torpid wrote:Note that I have implemented the "elite tank crew" upgrade into the initial tank.


I take it this doesn't include the +100hp increase? Otherwise the effective hp of a Russ with 35% DR and 800hp would be 1230.


800*1.35 = 1080?

How are you getting 1230?

NVM, you're right. I've gone and made the newbie probabilities. error. Ugh.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:52 pm

The calculation is Effective HP = HP/(fraction of damage received)

So 800/0.65 = ~1230
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Torpid » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 3:57 pm

Oddnerd wrote:The calculation is Effective HP = HP/(fraction of damage received)

So 800/0.65 = ~1230


And with that minor mishap overlooked :lol:

That's one tanky tank...
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 07 Nov, 2016 4:24 pm

1230 hp is a lot of hp on a standard tank, although it has always had that, just deceptively hidden behind the passive DR.
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Re: Any chance of russes keeping the vision upgrade?

Postby _4ut_ » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:11 pm

Son of Malice wrote:
DandyFrontline wrote:Ig already isnt op but noobs asking for more nerfs.

fix
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby _4ut_ » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:14 pm

Oddnerd wrote:Considering that IG have the best repair support in the game with their GM and bunkers, I don't see why Leman Russes should have any further advantage in their repair efficiency

This is called synergy, and I very sad by the fact that there are forget the meaning of this word.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby _4ut_ » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:18 pm

Crewfinity wrote:I think that would be fine. It could also help kasrkins and the baneblade see more play as well with all these timing changes, the Russ won't be interally as overpowered in the IG T3 roster

Ou ya, now we wuld have same shiti LR as we have shiti kaskrini and shiti blade.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby _4ut_ » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:25 pm

Torpid wrote:Change proposal:
Leman Russ Battle Tank -
Elite Tank Crew upgrade removed.
Leman russ hp from 700 to 1230.
Innate damage resistance ability removed.
Leman russ cost increased from 500/125 to 575/135.
Starting sight radius increased from 40 to 55.
Vanquisher cannon upgrade cost reduced from 150/30 to 140/25.
Executioner Cannon upgrade cost reduced from 150/30 to 120/25.
Do we agree that this resolves the issue?

But, maby its it. I agree.
But DR It was a point of LR and now its simpl tank. Most of new changes make faction closer and similar. And that i don't agree.
Last edited by _4ut_ on Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Remove the passive DR on leman russes?

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 13 Nov, 2016 4:33 pm

_4ut_ wrote:Ou ya, now we wuld have same shiti LR as we have shiti kaskrini and shiti blade.
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