Balance units

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Vindicarex
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Balance units

Postby Vindicarex » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 2:58 pm

Painboy Suks

Banshees OP

Sentinels OP

Lord Commissar regen/power sword OP

OM has no Anti-vech.

These should be obvious.
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MaxPower
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Re: Balance units

Postby MaxPower » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 3:02 pm

Stop making your stupid one-liner balance "discussions". There is nothing to discuss here since you didnt mention what is op about the unit and what you think should be changed.
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Vindicarex
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Re: Balance units

Postby Vindicarex » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 4:11 pm

Ya I COULD make a long and detailed, well thought-out post detailing my points.

But - most of you theory craft scrubs would disagree anyways.... so..
Tinibombini
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Re: Balance units

Postby Tinibombini » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 4:20 pm

Vindicarex wrote:Ya I COULD make a long and detailed, well thought-out post detailing my points.



I doubt it.
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Torpid
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Re: Balance units

Postby Torpid » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 4:26 pm

Vindicarex wrote:-


Painboy Suks - true, being addressed.

Banshees OP - Not true.

Sentinels OP - Not true.

Lord Commissar regen/power sword OP - True, being addressed.

OM has no Anti-vech - true, hard to address though.
Last edited by Torpid on Mon 17 Oct, 2016 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Atlas

Re: Balance units

Postby Atlas » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 5:38 pm

Why are you doing this to me Vindi? Same deal as before - put something constructive or I'll salvage what I can from this thread.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Balance units

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 17 Oct, 2016 7:04 pm

Bet you guys miss the days when I did most of the balance whining.
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Toilailee
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Re: Balance units

Postby Toilailee » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 2:16 pm

Oddnerd wrote:Bet you guys miss the days when I did most of the balance whining.


I miss the days when gamereplays was full of balance whining by egotistical pr0s and nubs alike and everyone hated each other for being a noskill n00b who only beat them by abusing broken stuff. :twisted:

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/in ... ode=linear

Sorry Vindi, it was too good of an opportunity.
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Vindicarex
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Re: Balance units

Postby Vindicarex » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 5:17 pm

Ya well when you play from the perspective of SM - and most of your t1 wargear sucks - you tend to question a lot of the equally priced wargear on the other side being generally better...
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Psycho
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Re: Balance units

Postby Psycho » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 5:19 pm

Vindicarex wrote:Ya well when you play from the perspective of SM - and most of your t1 wargear sucks - you tend to question a lot of the equally priced wargear on the other side being generally better...


But SM is absolutely OP. Youtube comments said so.
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Cyris
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Re: Balance units

Postby Cyris » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 5:26 pm

Psycho wrote:But SM is absolutely OP. Youtube comments said so.


Totally!

As are Eldar, Nids and IG!

And Chaos!

Orks too.

Basically everyone but OM :(
Vindicarex
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Re: Balance units

Postby Vindicarex » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 5:38 pm

Or as chaos - seeing how literally nothing chaos has can even hope to deal damage 1v1 vs a LA with feeder tendrils (2011 retail, btw), this forces the opposing player to play with combined arms to just have a chance to counter the Lictor (something like Tics + AC + Havoc + CSM).
- What does this effect do? Well:
- It guarantees lictor can effectively solo everything thrown at him (i.e. great map control) --> easier time for tyranid player to just send units wherever and cap the map. The chaos player cannot do this because his units do not match up vs gunats/gants/LA 1v1.
- It gives the tyranid player initiative (like all their stupid shit). This means that it's up to the Chaos player to respond to countering the tyranid player through build order, strategy, and micro (ofc). However, since the Chaos player is the one FORCED TO RESPOND to a meager investment quite heavily, it gives the tyranid player his chance to effectively counter the chaos player's reaction (leading to GG in most cases).

Now, it's pretty easy to just chalk this up to me whining at something I lost to aka "L2P N00b."

However, when you're facing a race with the fastest units in game (that also happen to be pretty good as 1v1 engagements) it makes it difficult to maintain map control since YOU can only cap wherever your army goes (which nets you about -1 point in a given time frame vs a tyranid player i'd estimate) which only changes if you micro well and beat is entire army.

Now, I was complaining that my only unit that could reasonably counter melee commanders, heretics, were being shit on. I suppose I could go 1x havoc (but since all nid commanders have inherent SUT counters, thats pretty tough). I could have even gone 2x havoc (but if the tyranid player gets literally anything else besides gants/guants, even this 60 power investment is likely to get countered).

So my point was that tyranid players go a lot of mileage out of their units for very little cost (a running imbalance theme with this game) whereas my counterparts to his army didn't perform nearly as well compared to cost.

I would claim that folks like Wurgl (and especially HolyHammer) fucking LOVED to abuse this game. Like how HolyHammer really only played Warboss or Tyranids (2 most powerful 1v1 commanders, just to abuse the living shit out of things like Use yer choppaz or spore mines or easy to use no brain commanders - LA). Before that he played almost KNOB exclusively (near CR release, where his extra equipment gave him an insane +5 hp/sec regen or something). So when I'm trying to play with friggin HONOR and not abusing the flavor of the month/patch, only to get stomped on because someone clicked an upgrade and proceeded to faceroll everything - ya I'd call that army's balance into question.
Does anyone think tyranids weren't OP 2011? Hell, they're still pretty stupid even today in retail. A race where you have insane t1 proficiency, weak T2 (solely due to no vehicle rushes - oh no!) and a powerful T3 with best walker (where every tyranid player needed to get to win and often did with unhindered power income).


This is my general point: units still exist that have a skill imbalance. Banshees win games just with A-move if the opponent makes a mistake. Sentinel takes no bleed and counters too much shit, etc.
Like, imagine if OM brother captain had flesh hook - the race would easily be 2x as good. This is the same with tyranids as it completely nullifies important units for a basic ability. But what do my favorite commanders get? Move faster/Knockdown shit (sometimes, in melee). Balance?

What if Force Commander or Brother Captain (or even Chaos lord) has a wargear equivalent to Feeder Tendrils (as opposed to their sub-par t1 upgrades presently) - i'd bet they would amplify the race's strength 2 fold. It's the same principle with WSE or WB - commanders who make an already competetive faction fucking awesome because of their (free), innate strength (teleport, regen/globals) ON TOP OF the ubiquitous ability to buy niche wargear like most of commanders.

To me, this isn't balance - clearly not all commanders are equal (in 1v1).
Last edited by Vindicarex on Tue 18 Oct, 2016 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Oddnerd
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Re: Balance units

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 6:30 pm

I would claim that folks like Wurgl (and especially HolyHammer) fucking LOVED to abuse this game. Like how HolyHammer really only played Warboss or Tyranids (2 most powerful 1v1 commanders, just to abuse the living shit out of things like Use yer choppaz or spore mines or easy to use no brain commanders - LA). Before that he played almost KNOB exclusively (near CR release, where his extra equipment gave him an insane +5 hp/sec regen or something). So when I'm trying to play with friggin HONOR and not abusing the flavor of the month/patch, only to get stomped on because someone clicked an upgrade and proceeded to faceroll everything - ya I'd call that army's balance into question.


You've come to the wrong place if you want to play with honour - there is no honour, only win farming. I tried to play that way, but now I'm a bitter asshole (or at least more than I used to be).

It is nice to see someone else who can differentiate between being good and being a flavour of the month abuser though.
Atlas

Re: Balance units

Postby Atlas » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 6:49 pm

Vindicarex wrote: - Lots of good words.-

Like, imagine if OM brother captain had flesh hook - the race would easily be 2x as good.


Well, he actually does. It's called Psychic Lash. However, I'll still give half credit because his accessory slot is completely dominated by Unending Purge, it's T2 and he's really too slow to use it all that effectively before getting focused in midgame.


Vindicarex wrote:What if Force Commander or Brother Captain (or even Chaos lord) has a wargear equivalent to Feeder Tendrils (as opposed to their sub-par t1 upgrades presently) - i'd bet they would amplify the race's strength 2 fold. It's the same principle with WSE or WB - commanders who make an already competetive faction fucking awesome because of their (free), innate strength (teleport, regen/globals) ON TOP OF the ubiquitous ability to buy niche wargear like most of commanders.

To me, this isn't balance - clearly not all commanders are equal (in 1v1).


Alright, this is better. Saves me from having to entirely delete a thread here.

I must admit, I think Vindi has some points here. I might not agree with everything he has to say, but atm there are some heroes who I feel are too strong early in the game atm whether it be through army strength, wargear etc etc. As to which ones, feel free to make a case.
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Toilailee
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Re: Balance units

Postby Toilailee » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 9:22 pm

Oddnerd wrote:You've come to the wrong place if you want to play with honour - there is no honour, only win farming. I tried to play that way, but now I'm a bitter asshole (or at least more than I used to be).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqcImMK ... n5q&t=1053
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Vindicarex
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Re: Balance units

Postby Vindicarex » Tue 18 Oct, 2016 9:33 pm

That's not to say I players like HolyHammer (and players who like abuse) aren't good - but they are using strategies that are easier to execute with higher returns, meaning they can put whatever skill they have into other areas while units like Warboss grant effective melee immunity or WSE teleports capping 50% quicker.
The Bad Road
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Re: Balance units

Postby The Bad Road » Fri 21 Oct, 2016 2:29 am

On the subject of crappy early game wargear...

FC

Power Sword

Statistics: The Power Sword maintains it's statistics, the plasma pistol is exchanged for a Storm Bolter (piercing damage, 40 damage per hit & 20.00 damage per second).

Goal: The goal is to make the Power Sword better by coupling it with a decent ranged weapon, allowing the FC a bit more versatility early on in addition to better pursuit kills.

Errant Mail (replaces Armor of Alacrity)

Req: 125, P: 25, T: 20 seconds

Increase the FC's courage by 100, speed by 0.5 and melee charge range to 18.

Goal: Errant mail is designed to be a non energy intensive linebreaker option, allowing the force commander to quickly engage in t1 with enough power to exploit both Battlecry and the Iron Halo.

Thoughts?
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Re: Balance units

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 21 Oct, 2016 2:40 am

The Bad Road wrote:On the subject of crappy early game wargear...

FC

Errant Mail (replaces Armor of Alacrity)

Req: 125, P: 25, T: 20 seconds

Increase the FC's courage by 100, speed by 0.5 and melee charge range to 18.

Goal: Errant mail is designed to be a non energy intensive linebreaker option, allowing the force commander to quickly engage in t1 with enough power to exploit both Battlecry and the Iron Halo.

Thoughts?


I don't understand why you would want to take one of the Force Commanders best wargears, make it more expensive, then exchange it with useless stats.

I think Alacrity(as it is) needs .5 more speed to make it balanced. Too many units are able to get away just barely.
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Re: Balance units

Postby The Bad Road » Fri 21 Oct, 2016 3:02 am

Alacrity kind of sucks in my view...artificer just outclasses it by virtue of being the third leg of the cheesehammer combo. If I had my druthers (and teleport pack didn't exist) I would replace AA with a jump-pack suit.
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Torpid
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Re: Balance units

Postby Torpid » Fri 21 Oct, 2016 1:29 pm

The Bad Road wrote:Alacrity kind of sucks in my view...artificer just outclasses it by virtue of being the third leg of the cheesehammer combo. If I had my druthers (and teleport pack didn't exist) I would replace AA with a jump-pack suit.


In 3v3 yes. The FC is incredibly boring there, even his stormshield builds that are viable in 3v3 synergise better with artificer than they do alacrity so there is no reason to go alacrity.

In 1v1 however things are very different. I rarely find myself going artificer there - firstly the iron halo is a bigger health buff and health regen buff (courtesy of 1 energy regen per second with a shield being equal to 5hp/s regen) for sheer in combat tankiness, so get that if you wanna play that FC. But more pertinently the mobility the extra speed and -crucially- the sprint ability gives him in tandem with that awesome pistol of his and his high dps starting weapon (chaos lord is so jelly) means you bleed models all over the place. It's also really good for flanking set-up-teams, which of course is something you just cannot use it for in the laney team game maps.

Alacrity owns orks and eldar imo. Nearly always get it vs them unless they are spamming melee in which case obviously halo is better.
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Re: Balance units

Postby Nurland » Sun 23 Oct, 2016 5:34 pm

If I will see an OP like this in one more topic, I will nuke it.

Codex didn't write the guidelines for balance posts just for luls.
#noobcodex

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